Thin argument against

[Ben]

I don't think he changed his style at all. I think he wanted his victims' money, when they had any, and he thought women easy to come by and were expendable. When one became an encumbrance or lost his interest, he got rid of them. I can easily see him continuing to be the Ripper, if he was the Ripper

I agree 100%, Cel, especially on Klosowski's likely motivations for poisoning his wives.

Hi Claire,

Once he saw, though, that he could benefit from her death, his 'background' in killing, as per Caz's argument, would have removed all inhibitions to murder.

But why would the ripper murders have been "in the background" by that stage, especially if he was getting away with them? Or alternatively, why hadn't his "background" been poisoning women for financial gain from the outset if he recognised its benefits? I don't remotely subscribe to the view that a serialist's MO persists until death or capture; indeed, we know this to be false. On the other hand, a sexually-motivated serial mutilator will rarely, if ever, surrender violence in favour of subterfuge. You might see him surrending a knife in favour of a gun, for example, but the "leap" in this case in too substantial to be credible, in my view.

More problematic than the proposed "change", in my view, is the lack of a viable incentive for that change in the first place. It just isn't enough to say maybe this happened to make him consider a change, or he just did...

Best regards,
Ben

[protohistorian]

I agree 100%, Cel, especially on Klosowski's likely motivations for poisoning his wives.

Hi Claire,



But why would the ripper murders have been "in the background" by that stage, especially if he was getting away with them? Or alternatively, why hadn't his "background" been poisoning women for financial gain from the outset if he recognised its benefits? I don't remotely subscribe to the view that a serialist's MO persists until death or capture; indeed, we know this to be false. On the other hand, a sexually-motivated serial mutilator will rarely, if ever, surrender violence in favour of subterfuge. You might see him surrending a knife in favour of a gun, for example, but the "leap" in this case in too substantial to be credible, in my view.


More problematic than the proposed "change", in my view, is the lack of a viable incentive for that change in the first place. It just isn't enough to say maybe this happened to make him consider a change, or he just did...

Best regards,
Ben

If the change in m.o. reflects a change in the amount of gratification the killer felt, we should expect a change, the size and nature of the change would be tied to the killers unique pathology, and not be subject to our scrutiny. This is true of modern serials as well, save those few that give a somewhat accurate account of their perspectives while in custody. This is even now a poorly investigated/understood area of serial behavior and I personally would not be surprised by any change in a disorganized serials methodology, being as they are the physical manifestations of a cognitive pathology. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

Indeed, Cel. However, there was nothing stopping him continuing to commit JTR-style murders of strangers whilst still living with a partner. Other SKs have done so, and at a level far outstripping either JTR or Kłosowski, time and again.

Nothing is not quite correct. There was no apparent, ouside,observeable force.

[Natalie Severn]

The more you follow Klosowski"s behaviour pattern,[leaving aside the killings if need be] the more you see how mercurial and restless he was.His was a "been there done that"lifestyle.He changed where he lived every six or seven months,changed his shops with more or less the same frequency,his "wives" too---his life was always in a state of flux.Its possible ripping open women didnt do it for him after a while-that he went as far as it was possible to go with Mary Kelly and he had sated himself----after that it was just more of the same and didnt bring him the same satisfaction.The same sort of "ennui" seemed to set in with his wives.One moment he is having some fun with them---for example putting on mini musicals in his barber shop and doing sing-a-longs,but suddenly he has grown tired of it all-and her-and needs to move on.Same when he went to America-he wasnt there a year before he was on his way back after having had a violent quarrel with his pregnant wife -who had fled back to England in fear of her life.
But from all accounts he was not particularly cruel while his victims were dying from his daily dose of arsenic-just straightforward.I dont think he ever inherited any money either---his last wife was the eighteen year old daughter of a labourer.He fought with her sometimes-knocked her head against the wall but according to her sister Louisa,she took care of herself by kicking him back ,a retaliation which may have brought on his killer instinct because the next thing we know he has taken against her and has started his old trick of poisoning again .
It really looks to me as though part of his problem was that he had a low boredom threshold-a bit like the equivalent of a child with a limited attention span/attention deficit disorder.

[protohistorian]

The more you follow Klosowski"s behaviour pattern,[leaving aside the killings if need be] the more you see how mercurial and restless he was.His was a "been there done that"lifestyle.He changed where he lived every six or seven months,changed his shops with more or less the same frequency,his "wives" too---his life was always in a state of flux.Its possible ripping open women didnt do it for him after a while-that he went as far as it was possible to go with Mary Kelly and he had sated himself----after that it was just more of the same and didnt bring him the same satisfaction.The same sort of "ennui" seemed to set in with his wives.One moment he is having some fun with them---for example putting on mini musicals in his barber shop and doing sing-a-longs,but suddenly he has grown tired of it all-and her-and needs to move on.Same when he went to America-he wasnt there a year before he was on his way back after having had a violent quarrel with his pregnant wife -who had fled back to England in fear of her life.
But from all accounts he was not particularly cruel while his victims were dying from his daily dose of arsenic-just straightforward.I dont think he ever inherited any money either---his last wife was the eighteen year old daughter of a labourer.He fought with her sometimes-knocked her head against the wall but according to her sister Louisa,she took care of herself by kicking him back ,a retaliation which may have brought on his killer instinct because the next thing we know he has taken against her and has started his old trick of poisoning again .
It really looks to me as though part of his problem was that he had a low boredom threshold-a bit like the equivalent of a child with a limited attention span/attention deficit disorder.

I agree, with the span issues, I would suggest that it was not boredom, rather an internal sense of "now this is below me." Dude had some very serious issues. Even when I try compensate for megalomania, some actions still do not add up. Why, for example did he view service in the russian army as a more suitable environment than Praga? The only guess I have is that it was a combination of realising the enormity of personal commitment it would take to become a M.D. in conjunction with the misconception that the army was glamorous. Whatever the case, to the external observer, it was not rational. Respectfully Dave

[Natalie Severn]

I agree, with the span issues, I would suggest that it was not boredom, rather an internal sense of "now this is below me." Dude had some very serious issues. Even when I try compensate for megalomania, some actions still do not add up. Why, for example did he view service in the russian army as a more suitable environment than Praga? The only guess I have is that it was a combination of realising the enormity of personal commitment it would take to become a M.D. in conjunction with the misconception that the army was glamorous. Whatever the case, to the external observer, it was not rational. Respectfully Dave

On the contrary PH,I think the Russian Army may have been seen to offer potential outlets for anyone able to offer "barber surgeon" skills on the battlefield----where,in those days,nobody asked many questions because the battlefield was often such a blood bath.At this point in his life he may even have seen it as a "homoerotic" venture.He didnt like women much----or not for long anywayso why not begin by experiencing all the gore and grotesque battle wounds endured by soldiers?
Or maybe because the army performed those famous folk dances all across Russia flying across the stage with their swords drawn---that everybody loved to see--- maybe he intended joining one of these?

[protohistorian]

On the contrary PH,I think the Russian Army may have been seen to offer potential outlets for anyone able to offer "barber surgeon" skills on the battlefield----where,in those days,nobody asked many questions because the battlefield was often such a blood bath.At this point in his life he may even have seen it as a "homoerotic" venture.He didnt like women much----or not for long anywayso why not begin by experiencing all the gore and grotesque battle wounds endured by soldiers?
Or maybe because the army performed those famous folk dances all across Russia flying across the stage with their swords drawn---that everybody loved to see--- maybe he intended joining one of these?

It is a matter of understanding what he was getting into. I suspect he did not realize that studying medicine would be hard, so instead of bucking up, he quits. Having learned nothing, he again enters an environment with no understanding of it's consequences, and what is the result, he quits and runsto yet another environment he has no understanding of . In this environment (England) he does not tell people he is a quitter, no suddenly the equivalent of an army medic. He does not accumulate sucess through effort, he simply makes it up. Worse still, he believes it. This is a pattern of behavior that repeats, and in his own mind none of it is Severino's fault. Respectfully Dave

[protohistorian]

incidentally it occurs to me, the same would be true in his personal relationships. He knows the women for hardly any time, gets married, and she ends up dead. We all face the unknown to some degree when we court and marry, but we do not all kill the significant other when they display behaviors we do not approve of.

[Natalie Severn]

incidentally it occurs to me, the same would be true in his personal relationships. He knows the women for hardly any time, gets married, and she ends up dead. We all face the unknown to some degree when we court and marry, but we do not all kill the significant other when they display behaviors we do not approve of.

Yes,I can see some of this PH.When you read about him with women you get a brief glimpse of him having a little pleasure with them at first ---like Mary at the piano in Hastings.Next thing is she too is being rowed out fast and he is onto something and someone new.By the way,the reason Lucy Baderski fled from him in New York was because he threatened to cut her head off with the knife she found under his pillow.So the relationship was at Rock bottom again,a familiar pattern----

[protohistorian]

Yes,I can see some of this PH.When you read about him with women you get a brief glimpse of him having a little pleasure with them at first ---like Mary at the piano in Hastings.Next thing is she too is being rowed out fast and he is onto something and someone new.By the way,the reason Lucy Baderski fled from him in New York was because he threatened to cut her head off with the knife she found under his pillow.So the relationship was at Rock bottom again,a familiar pattern----

That threat is a potent indicator. 1. he had the knife already under the pillow waiting to be deployed as a weapon and secreted from sight. 2. The the threat to cut off heads is an interesting choice of words. We have within the c5 wounds that resemble someone learning that very behavior. It implies that Severin was not unfamiliar with the process. If one excepts this, the very next question becomes, where did he learn that? I bet that was not in any book of the time.

[Sam Flynn]

The the threat to cut off heads is an interesting choice of words. Where did he learn that? I bet that was not in any book of the time.

Unless there was such a book as "The Victorian Husband's Guide to Violent Domestic Threats" (translated into Polish or Yiddish) you may have a point there, Dave.

[Natalie Severn]

That threat is a potent indicator. 1. he had the knife already under the pillow waiting to be deployed as a weapon and secreted from sight. 2. The the threat to cut off heads is an interesting choice of words. We have within the c5 wounds that resemble someone learning that very behavior. It implies that Severin was not unfamiliar with the process. If one excepts this, the very next question becomes, where did he learn that? I bet that was not in any book of the time.

It certainly scared the life out of the pregnant Lucy.He followed her back to England though and arrived shortly before she was due to give birth but by then she had had enough and refused to have anything more to do with him.
Annie Chapman"s murder bore the marks of her head being almost severed from her body.

[protohistorian]

Unless there was such a book as "The Victorian Husband's Guide to Violent Domestic Threats" (translated into Polish or Yiddish) you may have a point there, Dave.

or the ever popular 'Human Disassemby for Dummies"

[protohistorian]

It certainly scared the life out of the pregnant Lucy.He followed her back to England though and arrived shortly before she was due to give birth but by then she had had enough and refused to have anything more to do with him.
Annie Chapman"s murder bore the marks of her head being almost severed from her body.

Yes indeed, how about that transatlantic stalking?

[Natalie Severn]

Yes indeed, how about that transatlantic stalking?

Did he transatlantic stalk? Where? I must have missed that.