Exonerating Michael Kidney - A Fresh Look at Old Myths

[mariab]

I’d be careful letting it get around that you fantasize about me buying you a drink at a pub.

Problem with letting people buy you drinks, Lechmere, is that there might be expectations later on, if you're catching my drift. Any girl with the slightest experience will tell you that if you chose this (super easily available) cheap avenue of getting smashed, you'd better be equipped to be able to physically restrain the drink buyer afterwards (which can be done, esp. since they tend to be smashed too).
(I still recall this Aussie guy couple years ago screaming at me “You led me on!“ and I'm like “Here's your beer back, buddy, I've only drunk half of the bottle so far.“)

Packer goes to morgue and a long distance to Scotland Yard in a cab in the daytime on 4th October with two private detectives. The overt and not very hazy motive was to show to the WVC that the private detectives were efficiently doing their job.

Right on about the motive. On second thoughs, no wait, there was also a certain amount of planted evidence involved, as well as 2 planted newspaper stories, which amounts to obstruction of justice. For the record: Packer was a fake witness. In case you're not aware of this part of the story, Lechmere, this is incidentally discussed in an Examiner 2 article by the same author. This article contains more about the 2 detectives in question.

There is no evidence whatsoever that Kidney met any private detectives or that anyone paid for his very short cab ride to Leman Street.

Lechmere, a labourer like Michael Kidney wouldn't even dream of hiring a ransom cab.
That being said, I need to re-read that part of Exonerating to see where Tom allegedly left evidence out pertaining to Kidney at the police precinct.

Women with large bottom lips and retracted chins also display a lot of gum when they smile.

Tried reenacting this by pursing my bottom lip and punching my chin in, but it didn't work out. Ended up making silly faces in front of the mirror.

[curious4]

I have had a picture in my mind of Tom Wescott holding an impromptu wake in a pub over his theory that Le Grand sent Kidney to Leman Street, getting very heated at the failure to find right dates and Tom finally pouring me a big drink, perhaps paid for by a whip-round at the pub. Pure fantasy, of course.

Well it would be, wouldn´t it? Fantasy, I mean.

Cheers,
C4

[curious4]

Maria -with all your self proclaimed brilliance, I'm astonished that you don't know what a 'Hare lip' is. Go back to the Internet and look (clue: the upper lip is cleft and resembles a hare's lip).

There is a discussion on the photography thread (Rob Clack's Uber Thread ?)
where Garry has cleaned up Liz Stride's photo and it is clear that she had a 'wierd' (at least) or deformed lip ( but not a 'Hare Lip' by any imagination). The visual is supported by Neil Sheldon's description of her.

Curious : I think 'Long Liz' was a play on her surname, 'Stride'.

Oh yes, Ruby, could well be! Anything to back that up? With the good old cockney sense of humour sounds a good bet though!

Cheers,
C4

[curious]

Lechmere, a labourer like Michael Kidney wouldn't even dream of hiring a ransom cab.

Maria,
I don't believe you can be positive of that.

curious

[curious4]

I’d be careful letting it get around that you fantasize about me buying you a drink at a pub. If Phil Carter starts PMing you for a pic, don’t blame me.



Hi curious. Let’s not forget that the coroner ruled out any injuries to her face. Mother Gumm and Hippy Lip Annie would indeed be references to her mouth. Women with large bottom lips and retracted chins also display a lot of gum when they smile.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom.

Damn, knew I should have rechecked the autopsy report!

Cheers,
C4

[Lechmere]

Maria
How much was a cab fare from the area around Devonshire Street to Leman Street?

Say he was getting drunk in the George, where Rose Mylett was seen before she was found dead in December 1888.
Or even the Bricklayers on Settles Street, where Stride herself went drinking on the night she was killed.
Or perhaps the Hungerford Arms which was very close to Devonshire Street.
Either way the maximum distance (from the George) to Leman Street Police Station is 0.9 of a mile. From the Hungerford it is only 0.7 miles.
Some reports insist Kidney lived in Dorset Street – in which case the distance from say the Queens (where Stride had also been on th day of her death) to Leman Street would be just 0.5 of a mile.

Either way I believe the maximum fare would be one shilling. Kidney must have spent considerably more than that getting drunk.

It is one of those things that if it was so outlandish that Kidney had got a cab all on his lonesome, then it would surely have been explained at the time. But it wasn’t which suggests to me that a mere labourer could dream of hiring a cab.

And motive?
I don’t think it would be beyond a couple of dodgy private detectives to concoct evidence, that only they had supposedly discovered, in order to impress their employers so that they would be kept in retainer.

Lastly I have to say that I have never been worried about the consequences of someone buying me a drink! Or do you know something sinister about Tom Wescott? Are you saying he’s a Denis Nilson type? Should I ask for a postal order instead?

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm rather surprised no one has shown up here to tell me that Michael Kidney did, in fact, kill Liz Stride. I noticed Phil H state on another thread that he thinks that's the likely scenario. Would love to get the feedback of someone such as Phil to my article. I think I'll send him a PM.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Lechmere]

And who knows whether Kidney was living in Dorset Street or Devonshire Street?

[ChrisGeorge]

I'm rather surprised no one has shown up here to tell me that Michael Kidney did, in fact, kill Liz Stride. I noticed Phil H state on another thread that he thinks that's the likely scenario. Would love to get the feedback of someone such as Phil to my article. I think I'll send him a PM.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hi Tom

I have long thought that Michael Kidney makes for an easy fall guy for any theorist who wishes to exclude Liz Stride as a Ripper victim. Those who say Kidney killed her don't seem to have any strong reasons for contending that he was the murderer other than their need to say the Ripper did not murder her. At least, I have yet to hear any persuasive argument that Kidney was the guy who murdered Stride.

Best regards

Chris

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Chris. All the arguments to date for Kidney having killed her detailed in my essay and are exposed as being anywhere from blatantly wrong to lacking. I tried to stay out of the way of the evidence and let it speak for itself, except in the moments (as noted by Lechmere) where I state I'm speculating.

There will never be a day when 100% of Ripperologists accept Stride as a Ripper victim, but there may be a day when all of us can agree that Kidney was not her slayer.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Hunter]

A 'domestic' has always been the most prominent type of murder, especially when the victim is a woman. The police knew that and had a fairly successful record in bringing the guilty party to justice when that was the case.

The Gateshead murder was first thought to be linked to the Whitechapel murders; to the extent that Swanson and Baxter Phillips were sent to help in the investigation. Even with that, the authorities made the proper investigation and the real culprit - a boyfriend - was apprehended and confessed to the deed; which is what usually happens if the murderer was known by the victim.

If Kidney killed Stride, he was most fortunate in getting away with it.

[ChrisGeorge]

A 'domestic' has always been the most prominent type of murder, especially when the victim is a woman. The police knew that and had a fairly successful record in bringing the guilty party to justice when that was the case. .

Yes but so what... domestic murders are the most common murders. We all know that but that no means implies that the Stride murder was a domestic crime. You have to dig further.

The Gateshead murder was first thought to be linked to the Whitechapel murders; to the extent that Swanson and Baxter Phillips were sent to help in the investigation. If Kidney killed Stride, he was most fortunate in getting away with it.

A lot of murders were at first thought to be linked with the Whitechapel murders, with little factual information that there was any real link.

Chris

[Hunter]

Hi Chris,

I think you may have missed my point. I'm not implying that Elizabeth Stride's murder was a domestic... just the opposite.

The example of the Gateshead murder was used because some, in the past, have suggested that Kidney was missed because it was just assumed that the 'Whitechapel Murderer' did it and no in depth investigations of Stride's acquaintances were made. The murder I've referenced here just proves that the police made the proper investigation, despite any preconceived notions, and caught the murderer.

I should have said, if Kidney killed Stride he was fortunate to get away with it because most domestics are solved.

I hope that clears it up because I was misunderstood (probably my fault).

[auspirograph]

A lot of murders were at first thought to be linked with the Whitechapel murders, with little factual information that there was any real link.

Indeed Chris, and who's to say the Stride murder was not one of them.

The Gateshead murder was first thought to be linked to the Whitechapel murders; to the extent that Swanson and Baxter Phillips were sent to help in the investigation.

Yes but, as you may recall, Swanson was busy at the time in his office collating reports. It was Inspector Thomas Roots of Scotland Yard CID who went with H Division surgeon Bagster Phillips to review the Gateshead murder. This is what alerted Roslyn D'Onston, an avid newspaper reader, to his old friend's part in the Ripper investigation at the close of coroner Baxter's Chapman inquest.

Patricia Cornwell alternatively believed the Gateshead was rather a Ripper crime committed by Sickert, so I think it illustrates the pitfalls of applying modern forensics to the Whitechapel murders.

However, I tend to agree with Tom's position as Kidney was interrogated and released at the time. If he had a hand in Stride's murder, I'm sure the police would have been anxious to secure some sort of conviction, whether it was domestic, Ripper related or otherwise.

[Hunter]

Yes but, as you may recall, Swanson was busy at the time in his office collating reports. It was Inspector Thomas Roots of Scotland Yard CID who went with H Division surgeon Bagster Phillips to review the Gateshead murder.

Yes, indeed, it was Inspr. Roots. Thanks for clearing up that error.