Any tiny efforts to connect MJK with him?!

[j.r-ahde]

Hello you all!

Yes, this is a silly thread, as silly as its headline...

But; has there ever been any - however slim - effort to connect Mary Kelly with James Kelly?!

A far-fetched idea also to my eyes, but this case is filled with "far-fetch":es!

All the best
Jukka

[truebluedub]

Hi,
Yeah there have been at least two attempts.
According to the A-Z John Morrison argued the quarrel that J Kelly had with his wife was over an affair with MJK. Asking around on his escape he tracked MJK down killing those he asked (i.e. JTR's other victims). (1996:213)
James Tully on the other hand suggested that MJK was Mary Brider, Sarah Kelly's sister and hence James Kelly's sister in law (1998:325)

Kind Regards
Chris Lowe

[Limehouse]

I have a newspaper article published in 1984 when John Morrison first posed his James Kelly theory and in this article he states that he believed James Kelly might have been MJK's step-father! Difficult to believe given that James Kelly was about 30 and Mary Jane Kelly about 25 in 1888. Morrison must have re-thought this unlikely scenario and cast MJK as a lover of James Kelly.

[karensa]

new but fascinated

This is my first time posting - or coming here at all, actually. Saw the program earlier tonight on Jack the Ripper in America and it sucked me in finally. It's not been a case that really got up in me, though I'd delved from time to time. I did tune in for Patricia Cornwell's investigation but I just couldn't quite get my head around it, and have been one of the ones who never put much stock in any of the letters. Just my own interest and personal education in forensics wouldn't allow me to see these slaughter style murders being trivialized by someone seeking this sort of attention, baiting cops and such. I couldn't see it, especially since everything about this killer's MO was so under the radar, in the cloak of secrecy...so to come out and send a letter about it wasn't jiving.

ANYway, I'd never heard of James Kelly til this program and Ed Norris did a spectacular job of presenting a compelling case against Kelly and I hope there's a sequel or that someone with the ability can dig further into this suspect.


I share the question, silly or not, of whether or not he was related to Marie Kelly...but as the posts above suggested, it seems the investigation went only toward the wife's family...I think the woman would know if she had an additional child and then how would this one end up with the name outside of marriage?

It was my curiosity that Marie/Mary could've been James' sister, or one he'd recently learned about even (speculation). The murder transcript link posted elsewhere had James Kelly's year of birth as 1860, so he'd have been 28 as Jack the Ripper.

It is also highly interesting to me that the first 4 victims were all in their 40s and Marie was 20something. (FBI page had her listed as 20, while photos in this site's archive read 25, so who knows but definitely 20s).

Why the sudden change in victimology with this one? Why the age drop? As Freudian as it is (which makes me cringe going here, but still), the first 4 - IF - JK was the ripper, that is - if the first 4 were 40s, they're reasonably old enough to have been his mother's age, and she'd apparently not been too upstanding herself. Then the last one, his dead wife's age (at the time).

Regardless of who the killer actually was, there's something up with this age drop and change in victimology - which could also allow for some of the other victims to be reconsidered both ways.

I see the assumption is that his MO was all about throat slashing de facto, so several victims were ruled out because their throats weren't cut open but I feel that's the wrong perspective: his focus was on the neck/throat period - and this is the area the killer used predominantly to incapacitate them all before the more brutal stuff he would do. His focus wasn't the mutilation or disemboweling - it was in the initial rendering itself and centered on the neck/throat...which should include stabbing, slashing, strangulation, cutting, etc.

James Kelly stabbed his wife in the neck when she rejected him and threatened to end the whole relationship with him. He apparently experienced what most anyone would experience when being rejected - he panic and helplessness, which would send him the message of his lack of value and worth, same as anybody. He crossed the line and it was irrational, unorganized and definitely "blitz." He was, according to that awesome link someone posted on the other thread - jealous and paranoid his wife had been cheating on him, and that was why she was coming in late. His key word for her was calling her a whore.

Now take this focus of rejection, abandonment, whoring, neck/throat, and the ages and it could (Freudian as it feels to go here) be behind the victimology itself if he's the ripper.

Why are these women on the streets (whoring) when they have multiple children at home depending on them, why do this when there might be other options - for the age group of his mother....and then seeing this younger one doing it - maybe she did remind him of his wife, who knows...or maybe he didn't realize initially she was a prostitute and after being locked up awhile and doing without, he took a legit interest in Marie only to discover she was also a whore - at the worst possible time...and he lost it.

Then too, they could've each rejected him in some actual or perceived way.

I definitely agree that James Kelly is the strongest of all of the suspects (least those listed on wiki!) and definitely shot to the top of the list for me.


Last of all, is it known if there were tunnel systems or sewers running under this area in question - I'd think anyone running down the road at any hour covered in blood would be noticed by somebody somewhere. Could a possible escape route have been a nearby drop into the sewers/tunnels and get away sight unseen?

Thanks for letting me get this out of my system

[Pontius2000]

It is also highly interesting to me that the first 4 victims were all in their 40s and Marie was 20something. (FBI page had her listed as 20, while photos in this site's archive read 25, so who knows but definitely 20s).

Why the sudden change in victimology with this one? Why the age drop? As Freudian as it is (which makes me cringe going here, but still), the first 4 - IF - JK was the ripper, that is - if the first 4 were 40s, they're reasonably old enough to have been his mother's age, and she'd apparently not been too upstanding herself. Then the last one, his dead wife's age (at the time).

Regardless of who the killer actually was, there's something up with this age drop and change in victimology - which could also allow for some of the other victims to be reconsidered both ways.

that's only if you accept the "canonical 5" as the only Ripper victims, which I don't. I think Tabram and Coles were both Ripper victims, and probably McKenzie too. and it is also entirely possible that Elizabeth Stride (one of the canonical 5) was NOT a Ripper victim. though the timing of her murder as it relates to Eddowes would've definitely been a coincidence, there are other things to consider.......where she was killed was slightly further from the area where all the others were killed. plus, she was killed in an area with a lot of foot traffic, the others were in secluded corners and shadowy areas. she had a violent man in her life who could've been the killer. and just before her body was discovered, a witness saw her pushed down in the street (for the whole world to see) by a man......definitely NOT JtR's MO.


now, back to the age thing. Frances Coles was in her 20s and by all accounts, the prettiest of all the Whitechapel victims. so if you accept Coles as a Ripper victim- which I do- then the murder of Kelly would not be out of the ordinary. further, he was a sexual sadist and the focus was the mutilation, not the victim. here was a victim (Kelly) who had her own private room where he could butcher at leisure. he probably wouldn't have cared if she was 90 years old, the opportunity for undisturbed privacy was too good to pass up.

[Flagg]

Or, how dare she soil the good Kelly name!

I'd like a comparison between the "From Hell" letter and Kelly's handwriting. It doesn't prove he was the killer, but it raises some questions. Questions that would make James Kelly squirm if he were alive.

For those who look for irony, Kelly died the same year as Inspector Abberline.

By the way, I say irony because I believe Kelly was The Ripper. But like everyone else, I can't prove it.

[Flagg]

This is my first time posting - or coming here at all, actually. Saw the program earlier tonight on Jack the Ripper in America and it sucked me in finally. It's not been a case that really got up in me, though I'd delved from time to time. I did tune in for Patricia Cornwell's investigation but I just couldn't quite get my head around it, and have been one of the ones who never put much stock in any of the letters. Just my own interest and personal education in forensics wouldn't allow me to see these slaughter style murders being trivialized by someone seeking this sort of attention, baiting cops and such. I couldn't see it, especially since everything about this killer's MO was so under the radar, in the cloak of secrecy...so to come out and send a letter about it wasn't jiving.

ANYway, I'd never heard of James Kelly til this program and Ed Norris did a spectacular job of presenting a compelling case against Kelly and I hope there's a sequel or that someone with the ability can dig further into this suspect.


I share the question, silly or not, of whether or not he was related to Marie Kelly...but as the posts above suggested, it seems the investigation went only toward the wife's family...I think the woman would know if she had an additional child and then how would this one end up with the name outside of marriage?

It was my curiosity that Marie/Mary could've been James' sister, or one he'd recently learned about even (speculation). The murder transcript link posted elsewhere had James Kelly's year of birth as 1860, so he'd have been 28 as Jack the Ripper.

It is also highly interesting to me that the first 4 victims were all in their 40s and Marie was 20something. (FBI page had her listed as 20, while photos in this site's archive read 25, so who knows but definitely 20s).

Why the sudden change in victimology with this one? Why the age drop? As Freudian as it is (which makes me cringe going here, but still), the first 4 - IF - JK was the ripper, that is - if the first 4 were 40s, they're reasonably old enough to have been his mother's age, and she'd apparently not been too upstanding herself. Then the last one, his dead wife's age (at the time).

Regardless of who the killer actually was, there's something up with this age drop and change in victimology - which could also allow for some of the other victims to be reconsidered both ways.

I see the assumption is that his MO was all about throat slashing de facto, so several victims were ruled out because their throats weren't cut open but I feel that's the wrong perspective: his focus was on the neck/throat period - and this is the area the killer used predominantly to incapacitate them all before the more brutal stuff he would do. His focus wasn't the mutilation or disemboweling - it was in the initial rendering itself and centered on the neck/throat...which should include stabbing, slashing, strangulation, cutting, etc.

James Kelly stabbed his wife in the neck when she rejected him and threatened to end the whole relationship with him. He apparently experienced what most anyone would experience when being rejected - he panic and helplessness, which would send him the message of his lack of value and worth, same as anybody. He crossed the line and it was irrational, unorganized and definitely "blitz." He was, according to that awesome link someone posted on the other thread - jealous and paranoid his wife had been cheating on him, and that was why she was coming in late. His key word for her was calling her a whore.

Now take this focus of rejection, abandonment, whoring, neck/throat, and the ages and it could (Freudian as it feels to go here) be behind the victimology itself if he's the ripper.

Why are these women on the streets (whoring) when they have multiple children at home depending on them, why do this when there might be other options - for the age group of his mother....and then seeing this younger one doing it - maybe she did remind him of his wife, who knows...or maybe he didn't realize initially she was a prostitute and after being locked up awhile and doing without, he took a legit interest in Marie only to discover she was also a whore - at the worst possible time...and he lost it.

Then too, they could've each rejected him in some actual or perceived way.

I definitely agree that James Kelly is the strongest of all of the suspects (least those listed on wiki!) and definitely shot to the top of the list for me.


Last of all, is it known if there were tunnel systems or sewers running under this area in question - I'd think anyone running down the road at any hour covered in blood would be noticed by somebody somewhere. Could a possible escape route have been a nearby drop into the sewers/tunnels and get away sight unseen?

Thanks for letting me get this out of my system

Solid post. Welcome to the board.

[Chris Scott]

People reading this thread may be interested in the one I have started at

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=4001

[Joolz]

Aberdeen Free Press - Tuesday 13 November 1888
Page 6
Heading : THE DORSET STREET MURDER
THE CORONERS INQUEST
IMPORTANT CLUES

Under sub heading of : Evidence of Kelly's Paramour [ Joseph Barnett ] .

" She [ MJK ] lived with a man named Morganstone , near the Stepney Gasworks and afterwards stayed at a bad house , where she was visited by a man named James Kelly who lived in Bethnal Green Road "