Kelly's Home Office files

[spyglass]

Hi all,
Going of track slightly, can anyone tell me the following

1. When did Morrison write his book?

2. Was he the first to suggest Kelly as a suspect?

3. What ever happened to Morrison.

I dont have any reading sourses to hand so would be gratefull for any answers.

Thanks in advance.

[Barnaby]

Hi

I don't think that syphillis is an 'old chestnut(!)' at all. The final syphillitic stage, the tertiary stage, can closely resemble a psychosis, in that people can lose all sense of reality. As there was no available treatment in the late 1800s the tertiary stage would eventually have been reached and I think that the behaviour displayed by Kelly as described in Prisoner 1167 strongly suggests that he was paranoid and psychotic.

I like Kelly as a suspect too but the syphillis angle won't work. He lived for several decades after these murders. If he was in the tertiary stage he would have died much sooner.

[Ryan_Miller]

Hello everyone,
In regards to James Kelly, I became highly interested in him about a decade ago and have studied him almost exclusively over the past several years. I find his connection to the Ripper crimes interesting but not very convincing. One thing to take into consideration when reading any of these Ripper related titles (especially suspect books) is that the authors, of course have done their research, but are ultimately trying to convince you of their suspect. Most will leave out contradictory evidence, or anything that could sway your opinion the opposite way.

In regards to James Kelly, I feel that the late James Tully, did an incredible job researching his book. He writes in a very scholarly manner, for the most part, listing every shred of information he could find on a particular name or figure. However, when you get to Chapter 4 and on the book starts to become more speculative, as he tries to connect Kelly to the C5.

However, thanks to Mr. Tully's book and the interest it sparked in the figure known as James Kelly, I visited the Archives and got my hands on the very files that Mr. Tully had used almost a decade earlier. I have posted a photo below to verify my claim.

I have used these files to fact check a lot of what Mr. Tully has said in his book, and overall he is a very reliable source. I am in the process of transcribing, word for word, every page in in the file and have found no mention of a raid on 21 Cottage Lane in these particular files. The files mostly contain letters from Dr. Orange, Dr. Gover, Dr. Brayn, the 1883 Old Bailey trial notes of Judge Watkin Williams, a few leters from Cunliffe, Beaumont and Davenport, Kelly's statement upon turning himself in at the British Consul in New Orleans, and his confession of his adventures after having returned to Broadmoor in 1927.

They can essentially be broken up into 3 major categories or era's:
1) The murder of Sarah Ann Brider
2) The escape in January 1888, with police communication back and forth
3) The return to Broadmoor in 1927

I took over 275 photos of the files so I could make sure that I was able to transcribe and understand every word found within. Once finished I hope to write on what I have found.

From what I have read Kelly seems to be a person who is prone to sudden bursts of anger and rage, but immediately afterwards understands his wrong doing and is deeply apologetic and remorseful. The files demonstrate that Kelly was extremely grateful for anyone's kind actions or word's (as demonstrated in his letters to Dr. Orange and portions of letters to Mr. Royston) and wanted to repay their kindness. He was tight-lipped and loyal to friends, and always wanted to repay a favor. When reading of his travels while a fugitive, he doesn't once seem to have had a violent instance, or though he did seem to get rattled a couple times.

I read Kelly as a person who in a fit of rage stabbed his wife, and was immediately deeply sorrowful, sitting in the very room with his dying bride and allowing the Police to take him away, instead of fleeing. He sobbed and even said, "I don't know what I am about, I must be mad." He, like any other prisoner, did not enjoy being confined and fortunately enough for him, he was intelligent enough to escape. He traveled and "earned an honest living", and eventually got tired of being on the run, being paranoid, and alone, and decided to turn himself over.

The one thing that really makes me curious about what he may know is mentioned in his statement he wrote upon returning to Broadmoor. He says, and I quote, "And I feel that I cannot miss the opportunity that I have now of saying that -- I -- did not do it. I know you will understand what I mean..." This comes immediately after he talks of jumping the walls of Broadmoor during his escape, and then he continues with walking away from Broadmoor.

In other words, he is saying, "I made myself a key, jumped the walls of the Kitchen Garden... by the way, I didn't do IT, you know what I'm talking about... then I continued walking until I arrived in Alton. Interesting statement don't you think?!

[Ryan_Miller]

In regards to the 17 files that have been destroyed, here is the specific page that lists the purged files. The files are:

3 5 6 7 8 9 11 12 13 14 16 17 18 25 28 31 32

Yes, that is exactly 17 files as Tully states in his book.
I am working on trying to figure out what those files might have been as many of the other files might reference other files. This way I could at least hypothesize what the file might have been about or in reference too.

[GUT]

G'day Ryan

Thanks for posting that, any thoughts on the relevance of the notation:

This file should never be destroyed.

Personally I don't think Kelly was the ripper, but I've seen a lot worse suspects suggested over the years.

[pinkmoon]

G'day Ryan

Thanks for posting that, any thoughts on the relevance of the notation:



Personally I don't think Kelly was the ripper, but I've seen a lot worse suspects suggested over the years.

In my eyes Kelly was probably the best ever ripper suspect we have ever had however yet again we are asked to believe that he got better and stopped killing lliving for years and years after Mary Kelly's murder.

[GUT]

G'day Pinkmoon

Unless he killed O/S and each of his attempts to surrender to authorities were because he wanted to stop.

But I do wonder why his file is marked never to be destroyed.

If we knew more about where he was and when we could really research him.

[Major Kong]

Hello everyone,
In regards to James Kelly, I became highly interested in him about a decade ago and have studied him almost exclusively over the past several years. I find his connection to the Ripper crimes interesting but not very convincing. One thing to take into consideration when reading any of these Ripper related titles (especially suspect books) is that the authors, of course have done their research, but are ultimately trying to convince you of their suspect. Most will leave out contradictory evidence, or anything that could sway your opinion the opposite way.

In regards to James Kelly, I feel that the late James Tully, did an incredible job researching his book. He writes in a very scholarly manner, for the most part, listing every shred of information he could find on a particular name or figure. However, when you get to Chapter 4 and on the book starts to become more speculative, as he tries to connect Kelly to the C5.

However, thanks to Mr. Tully's book and the interest it sparked in the figure known as James Kelly, I visited the Archives and got my hands on the very files that Mr. Tully had used almost a decade earlier. I have posted a photo below to verify my claim.

I have used these files to fact check a lot of what Mr. Tully has said in his book, and overall he is a very reliable source. I am in the process of transcribing, word for word, every page in in the file and have found no mention of a raid on 21 Cottage Lane in these particular files. The files mostly contain letters from Dr. Orange, Dr. Gover, Dr. Brayn, the 1883 Old Bailey trial notes of Judge Watkin Williams, a few leters from Cunliffe, Beaumont and Davenport, Kelly's statement upon turning himself in at the British Consul in New Orleans, and his confession of his adventures after having returned to Broadmoor in 1927.

They can essentially be broken up into 3 major categories or era's:
1) The murder of Sarah Ann Brider
2) The escape in January 1888, with police communication back and forth
3) The return to Broadmoor in 1927

I took over 275 photos of the files so I could make sure that I was able to transcribe and understand every word found within. Once finished I hope to write on what I have found.

From what I have read Kelly seems to be a person who is prone to sudden bursts of anger and rage, but immediately afterwards understands his wrong doing and is deeply apologetic and remorseful. The files demonstrate that Kelly was extremely grateful for anyone's kind actions or word's (as demonstrated in his letters to Dr. Orange and portions of letters to Mr. Royston) and wanted to repay their kindness. He was tight-lipped and loyal to friends, and always wanted to repay a favor. When reading of his travels while a fugitive, he doesn't once seem to have had a violent instance, or though he did seem to get rattled a couple times.

I read Kelly as a person who in a fit of rage stabbed his wife, and was immediately deeply sorrowful, sitting in the very room with his dying bride and allowing the Police to take him away, instead of fleeing. He sobbed and even said, "I don't know what I am about, I must be mad." He, like any other prisoner, did not enjoy being confined and fortunately enough for him, he was intelligent enough to escape. He traveled and "earned an honest living", and eventually got tired of being on the run, being paranoid, and alone, and decided to turn himself over.

The one thing that really makes me curious about what he may know is mentioned in his statement he wrote upon returning to Broadmoor. He says, and I quote, "And I feel that I cannot miss the opportunity that I have now of saying that -- I -- did not do it. I know you will understand what I mean..." This comes immediately after he talks of jumping the walls of Broadmoor during his escape, and then he continues with walking away from Broadmoor.

In other words, he is saying, "I made myself a key, jumped the walls of the Kitchen Garden... by the way, I didn't do IT, you know what I'm talking about... then I continued walking until I arrived in Alton. Interesting statement don't you think?!

Ryan,
I am also very interested James Kelly...how goes the transcription of the Broadmoor files? Do you plan to publish them, or make them available on here? I am very anxious to read them!
And yes, that last statement is VERY interesting!!!

-Paul

[clark2710]

One main question is, why are files sealed for 100 years, I mean is it a privacy issue? Are there circumstances that would allow someone to see them early? Also, when whole pages are left out of files, no matter how inconsequential they may be, shouldn't they still be included; I don't get that. As far as Kelly as a suspect I'm am slowly making my way through the suspects and honestly I've never heard of him until coming to casebook. Is James Kelly a popular suspect among experts or is he just one of the many because he had mental problems and a criminal record with similarities to the Ripper's work?

[Kattrup]

One main question is, why are files sealed for 100 years, I mean is it a privacy issue? Are there circumstances that would allow someone to see them early? Also, when whole pages are left out of files, no matter how inconsequential they may be, shouldn't they still be included; I don't get that. As far as Kelly as a suspect I'm am slowly making my way through the suspects and honestly I've never heard of him until coming to casebook. Is James Kelly a popular suspect among experts or is he just one of the many because he had mental problems and a criminal record with similarities to the Ripper's work?

Hi Clark

it's normal practice for archives to seal files for a certain period, to protect various interests. In the case of patients' files, there are obvious privacy issues, where the patients themselves would not appreciate having their personal details perused by all and sundry.

There can be other limits to access according to the nature of the material, for instance foreign policy or matters of national interest might have a longer period while more mundane issues like roads or urban development might be generally available after maybe 20 years.

Materials being sealed means they're not generally available. Instead, they're only available by dispensation, so one must demonstrate some sort of adacemic, serious purpose in order to be granted access.

Re: the missing pages: It's fairly common when an archive receives material to filter out inconsequential stuff. Case files are filled to the brim woth unimportant memos about practical matters like invitations to meetings and ordering coffee. Nowadays, most archives figure it takes longer to clean such stuff out than it costs to just keep everything, but depending on the amount and nature of the material this can vary.

As for his suspect status, I don't think he's a popular suspect, whatever that is, but he is interesting - he was violent, imprisoned, escaped from Broadmoor so he was out during the murders, and the police I believe took an interest in trying to find him in connection to the murders. So as a suspect he probably has more going for him than most.

[clark2710]

Hi Clark

it's normal practice for archives to seal files for a certain period, to protect various interests. In the case of patients' files, there are obvious privacy issues, where the patients themselves would not appreciate having their personal details perused by all and sundry.

There can be other limits to access according to the nature of the material, for instance foreign policy or matters of national interest might have a longer period while more mundane issues like roads or urban development might be generally available after maybe 20 years.

Materials being sealed means they're not generally available. Instead, they're only available by dispensation, so one must demonstrate some sort of adacemic, serious purpose in order to be granted access.

Re: the missing pages: It's fairly common when an archive receives material to filter out inconsequential stuff. Case files are filled to the brim woth unimportant memos about practical matters like invitations to meetings and ordering coffee. Nowadays, most archives figure it takes longer to clean such stuff out than it costs to just keep everything, but depending on the amount and nature of the material this can vary.

As for his suspect status, I don't think he's a popular suspect, whatever that is, but he is interesting - he was violent, imprisoned, escaped from Broadmoor so he was out during the murders, and the police I believe took an interest in trying to find him in connection to the murders. So as a suspect he probably has more going for him than most.

I've noticed that many of the Ripper suspects have criminally fascinating cases in their own right

[Joshua Rogan]

Star 9 Nov 1888

At the Police Courts today
James Kelly was seen in the tea warehouse at the London Docks, but said, in answer to inquiries, that he was doing "Nothing." As he had two pounds of tea distributed down the legs of his trousers, Mr. Lushington concluded he was not telling the truth, and gave him a month.