Jack the Ripper in America

[Barnaby]

I also find it interesting that the police showed serious interest in locating James Kelly after the MJK murder yet this interest eventually waned to the point where he couldn't be recaptured even though he was trying to turn himself in. I guess this is support for the contention that the police ultimately were fairly satisfied that Kelly was not the Ripper; however one could argue that recapturing Kelly would bring renewed attention to his case, and this would reflect quite negatively on the police.

[Futzbucket]

Very good point, Barnaby. Speaking of the police's interest in Kelly post MJK, I believe what brought their attention to Kelly was a note written by someone names "CET".

I can't find anyone who has any idea who this "CET" is. Any clue at all?

[Barnaby]

No clue who CET is, but that note was written three days after the MJK murder. The police raided James Kelly's mother-in-law's residence (and by the way, this has all the appearances of being a pretty sick relationship given he killed her daughter), the very next day after the MJK murder. So, whoever CET is, he didn't tip the police.

Tully points to Monroe as the one who tipped off the police and cites a Home Secretary correspondence on Sept 22 as evidence.

[Futzbucket]

Thank you for clearing that up for me.

I also found Kelly's claim that he survived in London from support from family and friends odd. For example; he admits that his plan was always to escape to America, so why didn't his friends simply buy him a ticket?

Kelly attempted passage by signing up as a worker, meaning he had no money. It just doesn't add up. If Kelly did have this support system, then why didn't they get Kelly out of London that first day he escaped?

In his explanation to what he's been up to since the escape, he admits to being on the warpath, feeling jealousy and malice, but he admits to no actual crimes...then why did he feel compelled to turn himself over to police?

And why, when asked point blank about the specific time he spent in London during the slayings, does he have no recollection, where it seems he could describe the rest of his years with little problem?

It's suspicious. It's like asking someone, "where were you when man first walked on the moon", and they respond with, "I have no recollection of that ever happening." JtR was huge news, and being it occurred not only while he was in London, but during the time he first escaped and was attempting to avoid detection should mean that Kelly would have vivid memories of that time.

[Sis]

I’m new to forum and wondering if anyone knows the date when James Kelly was to have taken the steamer the SS Beechdale, to Vancouver? I'm wondering if it's possible if he could have been in BC in Sept 1899.

According to the timeline on casebook of James Kelly:
- March 26th 1896 - The Capella arrives in Liverpool a day early. The authorities have not thought to check. Kelly waits around for some time to be arrested, then finally gets tired of waiting and heads off into Liverpool. When the escort party arrive the next day there is no sign of him. Kelly remains in England for a further two or three years working as a coach trimmer in Guildford, then takes a steamer, the SS Beechdale, to Vancouver.

- 1901 Kelly again resolves to give him self up. He tells his story to the British Consul in Vancouver but when the information is communicated back to London nobody appears interested. After waiting 3 months Kelly heads back to England under his own steam but on arrival changes his mind and does not give him self up. It is not known how long he stays this time. He works for some time as a coach trimmer in Godalming, and is spotted at one point working as an upholsterer in North London. At some point he returns to America, and crosses the Atlantic several more times in the years up until 1927

[The Good Michael]

Sis,

I don't think anyone knows the dates for sure. I imagine you are referring to the Agnes Bing murder in 1899? I think it's a good fit for Kelly if he was the ripper. Who knows?

Mike

[Sis]

Sis,

I don't think anyone knows the dates for sure. I imagine you are referring to the Agnes Bing murder in 1899? I think it's a good fit for Kelly if he was the ripper. Who knows?

Mike

Yes, Agnes Bing is who I was referring to. I plan to attend an Archives Lecture on April 13, Without Justice: Two Victorian Era Unsolved Murders – Linda Eversole ( one of those murders is Agnes Bing). Since it is being put on by the Royal museum, I'm hoping it will be more on facts than speculation.
http://royalbcmuseum.bc.ca/events/fr...olved-murders/

[Roy Corduroy]

Welcome to Casebook Sis

Speaking of the police's interest in Kelly post MJK, I believe what brought their attention to Kelly was a note written by someone names "CET".

I can't find anyone who has any idea who this "CET" is. Any clue at all?

Thanks to Stewart Evans, we know CET was Charles Edward Troup of the Home Office

[Barnaby]

Thanks Roy for the excellent information!

Also, welcome to the boards Sis! I had never heard of Agnes Bing. This is really interesting!

[Sis]

Thank you, Barnaby. I became interested in JTR after searching for more information regarding two unsolved murders in Victoria near railway tracks one during WWII and the other at turn of century. I was doubtful about the speculations in the newspapers of Agnes Bing’s killer being JTR. After reading this forum regarding James Kelly time line and the details regarding the other JTR murders I believe James Kelly had the opportunity but there is still a possibility of it being a copycat. I believe there will be more facts than speculation at the museum lecture than reading old newspapers.

[RivkahChaya]

And why, when asked point blank about the specific time he spent in London during the slayings, does he have no recollection, where it seems he could describe the rest of his years with little problem?

It's suspicious. It's like asking someone, "where were you when man first walked on the moon", and they respond with, "I have no recollection of that ever happening." JtR was huge news, and being it occurred not only while he was in London, but during the time he first escaped and was attempting to avoid detection should mean that Kelly would have vivid memories of that time.

It is suspicious, but you'd think anyone who was aware of having committed the Ripper murders would have a rehearsed story, wouldn't you?

A couple of possibilities are that he was drinking very heavily at the time, and literally doesn't remember-- he may have whole years of his life that are hazy. That's also true if he had some kind of disorder like bipolar disorder, and was in an extreme state on one end or the other-- people frequently experience memory loss during severe depression, or extreme mania, or else their perceptions are so screwy in the first place that their recollections are not meaningful to them in a balanced state, and seem dream-like.

Then, he may have been engaged in some other illegal activity not at all Ripper-related, but if he revealed it as his alibi, he'd be in trouble, so he just said he didn't remember.

[kingG]

Hi I am new to the forum and by no way have any experience other that what I have read here and a few other sources.
I was the Upholsterer that featured in the "Jack the ripper in America" programme.
I agree with earlier statements by people who have said that it was a bit of a farce. I found that the researchers tended to ignore any advice and sensationalised it a little.
If you remember the scene where the Narrator/ bald cop was slashing away at the chair, that was an utter joke, it is not how it would have been done.

However just a few notes on the link with James Kelly, a trainee upholsterer, being a suspect.
Trainee upholsterers tend to have the worst jobs, namely stripping old furniture. In the trade we call this "ripping up" in the UK. A ripper would someone who strips the old upholstery off a chair using knives ,chisels etc.

I pointed this out to the researcher but it seemed to have fallen on deaf ears.

My main point refers to the "Dear Boss letter" where the ripper states " don't mind me giving the trade name"
Given that Jack is also a diminuative of James, plus he was a Trainee upholsterer whose likely work was "ripping " , is it possible it was an admittance?
As I have said I'm no expert, but what do you think?
Gareth

[Roy Corduroy]

Welcome to Casebook KingG,

The use of 'trade name' in the letter gave author James Tully pause, as it did you.

And for what its worth, Tully also noted James Kelly's handwriting on his 1927 statement written upon returning to Broadmoor bears a distinct resemblance to the Dear Boss letter and the Saucy Jack postcard.

I liked the TV show, all except the Carrie Brown part, the woman murdered in New York. We know Kelly didn't murder her. The rest was quite good, and it revived interest here on the boards.

Roy

[Pcdunn]

Denver strangler cases, 1894

Found this report from the Los Angeles Herald, vol. 43, no. 39, November 19, 1894.
It is from an archive at one of the California universities, and this is the plain text:

JACK THE STRANGLER.
Another Cyprian's Windpipe Squeezed in Denver —The Strangler Arrested. Denver, Nov. 18.— H. Meller, an Italian, entered the house of Maria Ventres, at 1330 Twentieth street, near Market, about midnight last night, and soon became engaged in a quarrel with the woman, and without the least warning squeezed her by the throat. He pressed his thumbs tightly upon her windpipe and squeezed so hard that the woman was not able to utter a sound. She imagined tbat the man engaged in choking her was the one who had strangled Lena Tapper, Marie Contassoit and Kikiu Oyama. She is a woman of great physical strength, and managed to release herself. She screamed for help, aud when an officer arrived Meller was trying to cut her throat with a razor. Chief of Police Armstrong, and the police generally, think that Meller is nothing more than an ill-tempered Italian. The detectives are not enthusiastic in the idea that their prisoner is the man who strangled three women recently. This has added to the terror and excitement of the women in that district of the town.

According to another report here on the Casebook site, from an Atlanta paper, there was a series of three stranglings of women in Denver in 1894. James Kelly claims to have been there in November of that year.
I find the above interesting, particularly that this Meller tried to kill Ventres by both strangulation and with a razor.