Interest in James Kelly

[Ryan_Miller]

I was wondering what it is about James Kelly that seems to cause so many Ripperologists to overlook him as a suspect. I know that McNaughten didn't suggest him, and that the constables at work didn't suspect him but he has many similar characteristics... and it is odd that he was missing during the time of the murders.

I am not suggesting that he was the Ripper, but it seems that nobody even bats an eye in his direction. With the exception of James Tully's book I don't believe I've even come across any other writings on the fellow. Judging by the small amount of threads in his "suspect section" it seems that most here at casebook don't have much to say about him...

I'm wondering:

Is it that most Ripperologists just don't know much about the Mr. Kelly?

Do most of us just believe there was no chance it was him, and move on?

Why is he so often overlooked?

[karensa]

Maybe it was because too little was known, or the factual circumstances with this wife didn't seem to raise any "pattern recognition" in anyone, and because it'd been 5 years previous and he was really young. Basically nothing stood out enough to make a connection.

I'm new here and depending on what info becomes available to suck me in deeper, may or may not become a regular, so I have no real idea about "community opinion" - to me Norris made an outstanding case for JK...so if he's this overlooked by people studying the case, who is the going prime suspect?

I read the wiki page that gave a list of handful of suspects (Lewis Carrol made me laugh out loud...I did not know this)...and to me, nobody BUT James Kelly seemed to be a viable suspect on any level. I'm just curious who this community seems to feel strongly about.

Thanks

[Pontius2000]

the main point I've seen against him not being JtR is not evidence pointing to his innocence, but rather that there is no solid proof that he was in the East End at the time of the murders.

there are these same type of dismissals on several of the suspects. and it's a solid investigation technique because you can't convict someone of murder when there are so many important unknowns. but at the same time, it must be realized that this case is 121 years old and a lot of new info is not going to be forthcoming.

I've only read a handful of books and documentaries on the subject. but in my mind, there are only 3-4 good 'known' suspects. and Kelly is as good as any of them. but at the same time, there were over a million people in the East End at the time and as much as the police bumbled the case, you have to wonder if the true JtR EVER got there attention at all.

[Flagg]

"no solid proof that he was in the East End at the time of the murders. "

*I'd want some kind of proof that he was in the East End during the murders if I were building my case against him. We know that he liked to slum and he'd been to the area more than once but that doesn't mean he murdered those women.

*I'm curious about Kelly and all the Ripper mail. Perhaps, a comparison of his writing vs the letters that could be genuine.

[BP1]

Since he was escaped convict it would be very hard to track this suspect to the East End or anywhere for that matter.
All the pieces to Kelly fit to include additional information I've read here and never mentioned on TV. The original name for the Ripper given to one of the suspects was Leather Apron, this seems to be a fit for an upholsterer. He began apprentice at age 13. Jack may have been the way they referred to him at that shop or when they wanted him to rip up a chair for new upholstery. He refers to his violent acts as work on some his letters, that also fits. He killed his wife with a pen knife by stabbing at her repeatedly in the throat and digging at it as if trying to do his work. He was diagnosed mentally insane and I believe it. His first victim died in a similar fashion but the multiple stab wounds suggest that he knew this first victim. Possibly suspected her of infecting him. He was a writer he wrote his memoirs after he checked back in. He wrote "From Hell" on one of his notes this suggests that his life had been turned into total hell by the prostitutes and the police. Actually he returned to Hell after being on the loose for 29 years So in actuality he was from Hell and never left Hell. On his "From Hell" note he mentions "I may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer". At this point I suspect he was planning on NY and had to get out of town quickly, possibly because they had someone identify him and drawings being circulated that where dead on. At the NY crime scene the letter X or Roman Numeral 10 was on the victim and on the wall near the victim. The knife was left at this murder scene (fits). The knife was cutoff 4 inches his wife was killed with a short knife, pen knife this fits. the handle had three notches on each side this I suspect to be a Roman Numeral and the number of victims that he had not been suspected of. The first victim was cut up with a long knife so at one point for whatever reason he shortened the knife. Possibly broke it off or damaged it on one of the victims bones. Or for easier concealment on board a ship.

When he returned to Hell after 29 years I suspect they knew at one point he was the Jack the Ripper so they changed his name to Taylor to throw things off. He was being sheltered there and there was a cover up but in 1929 an inmate got out and knew about Jack The Ripper at the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum. The man was closely watched and on his last escape attempt was killed in the act by the guards. Taylor was going over the same wall that Kelly climbed out of originally. All this fits.

[BP1]

Since he was escaped convict it would be very hard to track this suspect to the East End or anywhere for that matter.
All the pieces to Kelly fit to include additional information I've read here and never mentioned on TV. The original name for the Ripper given to one of the suspects was Leather Apron, this seems to be a fit for an upholsterer. He began apprentice at age 13. Jack may have been the way they referred to him at that shop or when they wanted him to rip up a chair for new upholstery. He refers to his violent acts as work on some his letters, that also fits. He killed his wife with a pen knife by stabbing at her repeatedly in the throat and digging at it as if trying to do his work. He was diagnosed mentally insane and I believe it. His first victim died in a similar fashion but the multiple stab wounds suggest that he knew this first victim. Possibly suspected her of infecting him. He was a writer he wrote his memoirs after he checked back in. He wrote "From Hell" on one of his notes this suggests that his life had been turned into total hell by the prostitutes and the police. Actually he returned to Hell after being on the loose for 29 years So in actuality he was from Hell and never left Hell. On his "From Hell" note he mentions "I may send you the bloody knif that took it out if you only wate a whil longer". At this point I suspect he was planning on NY and had to get out of town quickly, possibly because they had someone identify him and drawings being circulated that where dead on. At the NY crime scene the letter X or Roman Numeral 10 was on the victim and on the wall near the victim. The knife was left at this murder scene (fits). The knife was cutoff 4 inches his wife was killed with a short knife, pen knife this fits. the handle had three notches on each side this I suspect to be a Roman Numeral and the number of victims that he had not been suspected of. The first victim was cut up with a long knife so at one point for whatever reason he shortened the knife. Possibly broke it off or damaged it on one of the victims bones. Or for easier concealment on board a ship.

When he returned to Hell after 29 years I suspect they knew at one point he was the Jack the Ripper so they changed his name to Taylor to throw things off. He was being sheltered there and there was a cover up but in 1929 an inmate got out and knew about Jack The Ripper at the Broadmoor Criminal Lunatic Asylum. The man was closely watched and on his last escape attempt was killed in the act by the guards. Taylor was going over the same wall that Kelly climbed out of originally. All this fits.

[Jayson Charpied]

Death of James Kelly

I’m just curious where you obtained this information on James Kelly and how accurate it is?
I know pretty much the story and suspicion regarding Kelly, but I never heard that he was killed by the guards trying to escape.
He was actually missing for 39 years, not 29 (1888-1927) and I know he turned himself in, but never heard that he tried to escape again.
Also I never heard that he wrote “from hell” anywhere. Is that a fact? And again, where did that information come from?
Obviously if he did write the words “from hell” that would be a major clue, suggesting that even he was making references to the infamous Mr. Lusk letter.

I’m not saying that you’re wrong; it’s just new to me is all.

I also would like to know where you read, or saw that the roman numeral 10 on the wall beside the body of Carrie Brown? I saw the photo of Brown, and yes there was the roman numeral 10 on her shoulder, but I never heard of it being written on the wall?
Are you sure you’re not confusing the Juwes writing on the wall next to Catharine Eddowes?

The other thing is the knife that you said they found near the Carrie Brown? I never heard they found a knife? Where did you get that information from?

Again, I’m not disagreeing with you, it’s just new to me is all and I’d like to make sure it’s from a reliable source.

[Pontius2000]

I’m just curious where you obtained this information on James Kelly and how accurate it is?
I know pretty much the story and suspicion regarding Kelly, but I never heard that he was killed by the guards trying to escape.
He was actually missing for 39 years, not 29 (1888-1927) and I know he turned himself in, but never heard that he tried to escape again.
Also I never heard that he wrote “from hell” anywhere. Is that a fact? And again, where did that information come from?
Obviously if he did write the words “from hell” that would be a major clue, suggesting that even he was making references to the infamous Mr. Lusk letter.

I’m not saying that you’re wrong; it’s just new to me is all.

I also would like to know where you read, or saw that the roman numeral 10 on the wall beside the body of Carrie Brown? I saw the photo of Brown, and yes there was the roman numeral 10 on her shoulder, but I never heard of it being written on the wall?
Are you sure you’re not confusing the Juwes writing on the wall next to Catharine Eddowes?

The other thing is the knife that you said they found near the Carrie Brown? I never heard they found a knife? Where did you get that information from?

Again, I’m not disagreeing with you, it’s just new to me is all and I’d like to make sure it’s from a reliable source.

the book Prisoner 1167 does say that he attempted to escape again, but that it was a feeble, half-hearted attempt as he was in no condition to scale the wall that by then had been increased to 15 feet tall. and besides, they probably would've let him go if he'd really wanted because the curator saw him as an unwanted charity case when he showed up on their doorsteps and the only reason he was re-admitted was because the magistrate forced them to.

he was not killed by the guards. he died of pneumonia.

I have also read that a murder weapon was found at the scene of the Carrie Brown murder, but I don't know a whole lot about that case, so I'm not sure.

[Mrs. E. Nigma]

The original name for the Ripper given to one of the suspects was Leather Apron

This doesn't make ANY sense at all, because the man known as "Leather Apron" was caught, and his name was John Pizer. They knew who it was, and it WASN'T Kelly.

As far as the 'X' cut into Carrie Brown standing for 10, that's an even more bizarre assumption. In Greek, 'X' represents 'chi' and commonly accepted for the word "Christ". So we could also assume all he was doing was swearing at us, or wishing us an early Happy Christmas. Both assumptions are ridiculous, of course, and the 'X' found on Ms. Brown needs to be forgotten about.

Also, isn't there something proving that Kelly was in France at the time of the Brown murder in New York. I believe I saw it on another thread called "Jack the Ripper in America." Maybe you should give that a look.

Best Wishes and Happy Thanksgiving,
Erynn

[Flagg]

Maybe Kelly didn't kill Carrie Brown. But it seems that no matter where Kelly went a woman of lower social status was murdered in a fashion similar to The Ripper. Coincidence? No way.

[RealTyche]

The facts against Kelly being a viable suspect

There are several salient points for discounting John Kelly as a viable suspect, in addition to those noted opinions stated above.

1. Most modern criminal profilers that have examined the case agree that the Whitechapel murderer was not insane, as James Kelley clearly was. The means by which the Whitechapel murder was able to charm his victims, secret them to a dark location, commit the murders in a matter of minutes, and evade detection all point to a murderer that was quite sharp in his mental faculties. James Kelly suffered from paranoia and hallucinations, which would have made him quite a different individual than the swift, silent killer.

2. There is no evidence on record that James Kelly ever had any amount of surgical or anatomical knowledge. While most of the medical examiners involved in the case all differed of opinion in the level of the murderer's surgical skill, they all agreed he had at least some anatomical knowledge. As an upholsterer, Kelly would not have known how to access a kidney with the skill the killer did nor would he have been able to recognize a uterus.

3. He was treating himself for an STD, which was likely to have been syphilis. Contracted in 1883 and running rampant through his system, the disease would have done irreparable damage to his nervous system, resulting in palsy. In 1888 he would not have had the strength the killer displayed, nor would he have been able to hold a knife steady enough to inflict the throat wounds or organ extractions the Whitechapel murderer performed.

4. It is speculated he murdered the prostitutes he consorted with because of his STD. There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that the victims knew their killer. Moreover, this theory does not hold up if we examine the fact that the killings didn't begin until 1888 that we are aware of, which would have been five years after he contracted the disease. Such a long stretch would be inconceivable if the man was murdering for revenge. Were this motive correct, the killings would have begun in the later years of 1883.