Fiddler on the Loose

[Roy Corduroy]

Suddenly I was transported back to my childhood, a mocking Wearside accent, cold sweats and the words "Remember Preston 75"

Joan Harrison spent most of her last day on this earth at the St. Mary's hostel, her body would be found in a derelict lock-up garage on Berwick Road, at the rear of No. 3 Frenchwood Street, about half a mile away.

It sure is a small world isn't it?!

Thank you for the reply, Zodiac! Yes I came upon the Harrison case when looking into Preston. Tell me, she was not a victim of the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe after all, is that right?

Again, good to hear from you,

Roy

[Zodiac]

Thank you for the reply, Zodiac! Yes I came upon the Harrison case when looking into Preston. Tell me, she was not a victim of the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe after all, is that right?

Again, good to hear from you,

Roy

Hi Roy,

Your question, I'm afraid, opens a hugh can of worms to rival any that "The Whitechapel Murders" can provide. For the record, no, officially at least Harrison is not a ripper victim, though there are many aspects of her murder that convinced police that she was. Indeed they still look pretty convincing! Like with Jack, many people can look at the same evidence and come up with different conclusions, needless to say much bile/vitriol is then expended in rubbishing anyone who comes to a different conclusion!!!

Its very late, or should that be early??? I will post more for you after some sleep!!! until then, check out these links.

http://www.execulink.com/~kbrannen/

The best site on the Yorkshire Ripper murders, will give a good solid account of the "Official" version of the murders.

http://s867.photobucket.com/home/rupert-bear-2010/allalbums

Well worth reading, not a million miles away from some of my own thoughts/conclusions on the case.

http://www.yorkshireripper.co.uk/

Stepping out into whacko territory now, which is both sad and annoying, not least because he actually makes alot of very valid points about the flaws in the official version but then ruins it by trying to twist them to fit his own suspect/agenda. That would never happen on this website of course!!!

All the best,

Zodiac.

[Roy Corduroy]

Preston - Back in Time

Preston Prison in 1959

Photo by George D Thompson

St Mary's National School


St. Mary's Street intresects New Hall Lane where the Guild Arch was in 1882.
Notice the Belle Vue Hotel at left and church in the distance under the arch.


The same view today. The Belle Vue with church in the distance.


1882 photo from this Flickr page Thanks Nog Tow and all those who have put together quite a collection. - Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Preston - 1862

Back in time near when Sarah Kelly had her baby James there in 1860.

The Guild celebration is held every twenty years in Preston. A mill town, it was suffering economically in 1862 for lack of cotton during the American Civil War. But the festivities went on.

[Zodiac]

Back in time near when Sarah Kelly had her baby James there in 1860.

The Guild celebration is held every twenty years in Preston. A mill town, it was suffering economically in 1862 for lack of cotton during the American Civil War. But the festivities went on.

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Hi Roy,

Thanks, great posts and pictures as always! Blondin!!! Now I really didn't expect that! Brilliant find, thank you again. By the way, did you know that "Pablo Fanque" of the Beatles "Being for the Benefit of Mr Kite" fame is buried in Woodhouse Cemetery, Leeds, next to his wife Susannah Darby? I will try get you a photo if you would like one.

Best wishes,

Zodiac.

[Roy Corduroy]

St Mary's Street, Preston

Suddenly I was transported back to my childhood, a mocking Wearside accent, cold sweats and the words "Remember Preston 75"

Joan Harrison spent most of her last day on this earth at the St. Mary's hostel, her body would be found in a derelict lock-up garage on Berwick Road, at the rear of No. 3 Frenchwood Street, about half a mile away.

Zodiac, the 1975 hostel may have been the former St Mary's Hotel. From this site



Her murder was solved recently.

Roy

[Robert]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-12396506

But there is something I don't understand here. He wrote a note the day before he died (in 2008) in which he says he has lived with the guilt for over 20 years. More like over 30! Is this a typo by the newspaper or a misreading of his note?

[Beowulf]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-12396506

But there is something I don't understand here. He wrote a note the day before he died (in 2008) in which he says he has lived with the guilt for over 20 years. More like over 30! Is this a typo by the newspaper or a misreading of his note?

Maybe for the first ten years he was fine with it

Not knowing of all this information, I spent a little bit here reading the articles. How lucky for the police he left such a note. I wish they had something like this to connect JTR to his crimes. How awful to be a murderer and then wish you were not. To remember your brutality inflicted and suffer for years, unable to speak to anyone about it. Talk about mistakes made. Sheesh.

I recently saw a special on tv about James Kelly, here it is if anyone wants to watch it. I'm wondering how 'factual' it is. Certainly makes a case for James Kelly being the Ripper, and swayed me for a bit. "Oh, he's IT!" But then I woke up the next morning...lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CJMpL1qQ3E

I wish they could either rule him in or out, he's a good suspect for the murders and if it were true he was the Whitechapel murderer then it would also follow he came to the U.S. and had a long spree here, too.

[Roy Corduroy]

But there is something I don't understand here. He wrote a note the day before he died (in 2008) in which he says he has lived with the guilt for over 20 years. More like over 30! Is this a typo by the newspaper or a misreading of his note?

The note



The building which was the St Mary's Hotel is still there

[Roy Corduroy]

St Mary's Street

1865 Guardian Map of St Mary's Street, Fishwick Ward, Preston


A St Mary's Hotel (click) for census
B No 43 birthplace of James Kelly 1860

1 Church
2 School
3 Militia Barracks
4 Courthouse
5 Prison


St Mary's Church


Militia Barracks


Courthouse now museum

[Roy Corduroy]

Eleven years of age

(click 1871)

I have reason to believe this is James Kelly in the 1871 Census. His name given as James Motler, 'son' aged 11 in the household of Phillip, 52, Mary, 54, and daughter Mary, 23, in Eccles, Lancashire. The Motlers simply told the census taker he was their son, and thus he was recorded.

Author James Tully said that after Sarah Kelly travelled from her home in Liverpool to have baby James out of wedlock on April 20, 1860 in Preston, Lancashire, 'it seems likely that she was sent to her aunt, Mary Motler - her mother's sister - who later moved to Eccles near Manchester.' pg 1

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In the meantime James Kelly moved to Liverpool. Then, on pg 6 Tully recounts how James Kelly, leaving for London at age 18 in 1878 makes a side trip to say farewell to the Motlers. Mary was then 57 years old and lived with her husband Phillip, a year younger. At that time only one son, John, lived at home, four years older than James Kelly.

(click 1881)

Here in the 81 census is Mary Motler, and husband Phillip one year younger, with a grown son, John at home. This is the same Mary and Phillip in the 1871 cenus with the 11 year old son James. Son John was not recorded that year.

Some of the ages of the Motlers may be a little out between the book and the census, but 'son James age 11' in 1871 lines up.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Boyhood at Eccles



Mill on the Bridgewater Canal seen from Patricroft Bridge



Just behind the mill, the Motlers lived at 32 George Street

[Roy Corduroy]

Motler Household

At Barton upon Irwell, Eccles, Lancashire England

* 1861 Philip Motler, Head, shoemaker aged 42 born Wigan
Mary, wife, 43, born Genoa, British subject
Five children all born Eccles :
Ann 16
Mary 13
(both cotton factory workers)
John 9
Teresa 3
Martha 6

* 1871 Phillip Motler aged 52 born Wigan
Mary, wife 54 Italy, Italy
daughter Mary age 23 Eccles
son James Motler age 11 Eccles (my bold)

* 1881Philip Motler age 62 Wigan
wife Mary 63 Eccles
son John 28 Eccles

Thanks to Robert L, we also have the 1861 household record. As you see, 'son James, age 11' appears only in 1871. This is probably James Kelly. It correlates to author James Tully describing how close JK was to the Motlers who were, in fact, named in James Kelly's will. They likely raised him in his childhood years. Mary Motler was his great aunt.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Roy

[Roy Corduroy]

Grandparents

Great aunt Mary Motler's maiden name was Sherry. Robert L has located her marriage to Phillip Motler in Manchester 1840.

He also found the marriage of Mary's sister Theresa, James Kelly's grandmother, to his grandfather John Kelly in Manchester 1830 (click here)

[Roy Corduroy]

Age 1

From the Ancestry site, James Kelly (in my opinion) appears as James Jenkins in the 1861 household census with his mother Sarah, grandmother Theresa and other female relatives.

At 76 Radcliffe Street, Ecclesiatical parish of St Augustine, Town of Everton, City of Liverpool in Lancashire County, England.

Name age relationship to head married M or unmarried Un, birthplace

Theresa Kelly 52 Head M, Chatham Brompton
Theresa Jenkins 20 Daughter M, Isle of Man
Sarah Kelly 17 Daughter Un, Altrincham
Amelia Wilson 23 Niece Un, Ireland
James Jenkins 1 Grandson __, Preston