Identifying Hutchinson

[DJA]

Hi.
Surely we are not about to adopt the obvious conclusion that Hutchinson the witness was Topping..
I have maintained this since I joined Casebook..
Soon we will have a choice to make,
Was Topping being truthful...or was he fabricating.?
Regards Richard.

Plumbers obviously have a much more military bearing than a Naval trainee.

Given that training,a personal groom is more likely than a horse attendant.

The BIG clues are the unexplained child in his care and the push by Phillips for a pardon.

Hutchinson was a lookout for Jack the Ripper.

[Amanda]

Plumbers obviously have a much more military bearing than a Naval trainee.

Given that training,a personal groom is more likely than a horse attendant.

The BIG clues are the unexplained child in his care and the push by Phillips for a pardon.

Hutchinson was a lookout for Jack the Ripper.

Have to agree with you DJA.

Amanda

[richardnunweek]

Hi
Hutchinson was a lookout for Jack...
In the slim chance that he was, I would submit, that he had no idea that he was a lookout for a killer.
Regards Richard.

[Paddy]

To Debra

This might interest you:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=2392

Hi Debra there is a George Thomas on the Workhouse admissions in Southwark around 1903, born same time as the Groom I found on there......Wonder if they are both the same chap....I was interested that the one I found was walking around all the night before (just like the Hutch)

Thanks
Pat....

[Sam Flynn]

I am almost convinced by your great presentation.

Thanks, Paddy. My pleasure.

Allowing for small changes as you have ie: the formation of the o in George and the upward slope after n at the end

Letters can vary even within a document, particularly when it comes to the flourishes at the end of a word or name. They can also be thrown slightly off course by being forced to write in a cramped space - such as the "sign here" section of a form, the little box on the back of a credit card or at the bottom of a page. Where such circumstances prevail, it's hardly surprising if some letters - particularly "outliers" - show a small amount of variation. That's why I provided a number of samples from the "meat" of the signatures I obtained.

leaving of the H in Hutchinson and the lack of upper loop in the h in middle of Hutchinson, wouldnt the following from 1911 census almost fit too?

These others might be reasonable matches as well, and I have looked into some of them ("Lambeth George" especially, see here), but the evidence for Toppy remains the most compelling for a number of reasons.

For me, it's a combination of factors, not just the signatures - but they help! So, for example, I'd consider whether any rival candidate:

- is known to have a family story that links them to the Miller's Court murder, whether we believe it or not;

- was old, or rather young enough, in 1888 to have been employed as a groom;

- was of the right social background to have been trolling around London slums in 1888;

- had definite connections with the East End.

Toppy ticks all those boxes.

[Debra A]

This might interest you:
http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...postcount=2392

Hi Debra there is a George Thomas on the Workhouse admissions in Southwark around 1903, born same time as the Groom I found on there......Wonder if they are both the same chap....I was interested that the one I found was walking around all the night before (just like the Hutch)

Thanks
Pat....

Hi Pat,
Thanks. As it happens, i'm currently writing an article about certain females and their use of casual wards but one of the things I noticed in the Mint St male casual register during the research was the huge number of men, labourers, who traveled from Romford (and nearby areas) one night, slept in the Southwark casual ward and then were on their travels a couple of days later to another place outside London, or on to Romford if they'd come from elsewhere, tramping, looking for work. I think it is possible George Hutchinson was of this vagrant, casual ward class, you may be on to something.

PS I disregarded the watch stealer as he was very rarely Hutchinson, mainly Hutchison in the records I found for him so i can't see him signing a police statement as Hutchinson.

[Paddy]

I wonder if the George Hutchinson found in workhouse (Groom) could be the one that married Margaret Stevens (also a groom on wedding certificate) ? Both very similar age. Was it you Debra that found he had left his wife?
Pat.....

[Amanda]

Hi Debra,

Just wondered if you'd ever looked at a George Hutchinson that married in 1887?
I don't have an occupation for him yet.

Amanda

[Debra A]

I wonder if the George Hutchinson found in workhouse (Groom) could be the one that married Margaret Stevens (also a groom on wedding certificate) ? Both very similar age. Was it you Debra that found he had left his wife?
Pat.....

No, not me, Pat.

[Debra A]

Hi Debra,

Just wondered if you'd ever looked at a George Hutchinson that married in 1887?
I don't have an occupation for him yet.

Amanda

I haven't looked at too many GH's to be honest, Amanda. I don't recall any who married in 1887 of the ones I've looked at.

I've mainly looked at Sam's Cottage Grove watch stealer and the son of Ambrose Hutchinson as his Auntie did have similar handwriting! (he was dead by 1901 so I still wonder about him)
I am undecided about Toppy but definitely drawn in by his admittance he was the witness plus the fact his signature looks similar.

[GUT]

I suspect any bank would pay on that signature, they are so very alike.

[Sam Flynn]

I am undecided about Toppy but definitely drawn in by his admittance he was the witness plus the fact his signature looks similar.

His age, the fact that he married a girl from the East End (Poplar), with whom he set up house in the East End (Bethnal Green), are additional points in Toppy's favour.

Toppy also had interesting family connections, as his sister Jane was born in Hornchurch, barely 2 miles from Romford. As we know, Hutch claimed he'd just returned from visiting his sister in Romford on the eve of Kelly's murder. Whether Jane Hutchinson had returned to live in Romford in 1888 we may never know, but it's quite possible. The siblings' father was an Essex man as well (b. Chelmsford), so the clan may still have had relatives in that county. They certainly had roots there.

[DJA]

Hi
Hutchinson was a lookout for Jack...
In the slim chance that he was, I would submit, that he had no idea that he was a lookout for a killer.
Regards Richard.

Precisely.

Hence his delay in coming forward and Phillips push for a pardon.

Reckon Phillips had a very good idea who Jack was and knew quite well what was really going on.

So did the Nuns up the road.

Taking an axe to Kelly's door was theatrical.
Fair chance McCarthy was in on the act.

Jack's identity might not have been the big secret some believe.

[Debra A]

His age, the fact that he married a girl from the East End (Poplar), with whom he set up house in the East End (Bethnal Green), are additional points in Toppy's favour.

Toppy also had interesting family connections, as his sister Jane was born in Hornchurch, barely 2 miles from Romford. As we know, Hutch claimed he'd just returned from visiting his sister in Romford on the eve of Kelly's murder. Whether Jane Hutchinson had returned to live in Romford in 1888 we may never know, but it's quite possible. The siblings' father was an Essex man as well (b. Chelmsford), so the clan may still have had relatives in that county. They certainly had roots there.

That Hutchinson said he had been visiting a sister in Romford is a modern myth as far as I'm aware, Gareth.

As Pat and I were saying earlier in the thread, Hutchinson's movements were similar to many other men of the vagrant, unemployed, labouring class who used the causal wards while on their travels around the country looking for work. There were many labourers and men seeking work spending the night in the Southwark casual ward in the late 80s who said they had come from Romford or were on their way there (where the casual spent the previous night before entry and where he was headed on discharge where recorded in the registers) so his trip was just as likely to have been work related.

[Sam Flynn]

That Hutchinson said he had been visiting a sister in Romford is a modern myth as far as I'm aware, Gareth.

The reference to his visiting his sister in Romford is in just about all the contemporary press reports, Debs. Hutch's police statement also records the Romford visit, even if it doesn't explicitly mention his sister in connection with it.