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  • The problem is the press reports vary so clearly cannot be totally relied upon. From the Pall Mall Gazette: "I went to look up the court to see if I could see them, but could not. I stood there for three-quarters of an hour to see if they came down again, but they did not, and so I went away. "

    Now it seems to me that this version implies that he stood on the fringes of the court, "I went to look up the court...", in order to get a better view. It certainly does not imply that he entered the court.

    Comment


    • Police:
      went to the court (45 minutes)

      press:
      went up the court (couple of minutes)

      If I said I followed someone to their house, does that mean I went into the house? No.

      If I said I followed someone to the court, does that mean I went into the court? No.
      Thank you, Abby!

      It is unfathomable to me that some people are getting this so badly wrong. Hutchinson makes quite clear the distinction between going "to the court" (i.e. waiting on Dorset Street outside the court entrance), and venturing "up the court" (i.e. entering the passage itself). The fact that different terminology was used in reference to these locations ought to be sufficient to eradicate any excuse for confusing the two.

      Equally perplexing is some people's insistence that there is no contradiction between the police and press versions of his evidence on this matter. Since we are in possession of proof that when Hutchinson used the expression "to the court", he did not mean actually entering it, it follows that the police statement has him waiting outside the court for three quarters of an hour and then going away, whereas the press version has him doing that plus venturing into the court "for a couple of minutes". If any seriously doubts this, I wonder if they wouldn't mind showing me where Hutchinson mentions waiting anywhere for just a "couple of minutes" in his police statement.

      That's the other problem, I'm afraid, for those who claim no contradiction exists: whatever location "to the court" referred to, Hutchinson's statement has him standing "there" for the full 45 minutes before departing the area altogether, not popping off somewhere else for a couple of minutes. And before anyone protests that the police statement was vague enough to allow for Hutchinson venturing in and out of the court at any stage during that time frame (with silly old Abberline presumably not bothering to extract just a little more specificity than that), back we go to to the newspaper versions of his evidence which create a clear distinction between "to" the court and "up" it.

      Just watch this turn into another thousand-post argument, though.

      All the best,
      Ben
      Last edited by Ben; 06-16-2015, 12:28 PM.

      Comment


      • As for the question of why Hutchinson would create an additional lie about entering the court itself, having only informed the coppers that he stood in Dorset Street for the entire period, Garry Wroe offers a plausible suggestion in his book, Person or Persons Unknown:

        "Largely owing to Abberline’s belief in its integrity, Hutchinson’s statement was taken at face value. As a consequence, police efforts were concentrated on tracing the nonexistent Hebrew suspect, effectively leaving Hutchinson in the clear. Yet Hutchinson remained unaware of this and, within hours of interrogation, recognized that his version of events, courtesy of its hasty conception, contained flaws in several key areas. Uppermost in his mind was the possibility that he might unknowingly have been observed when entering the interconnecting passage, or indeed as he lurked outside Kelly’s room. (Mary Ann Cox, it should be noted, returned to the court at around three o’clock and may have been seen by Hutchinson.) Since any such revelation would have compromised both his story and his credibility, thereby inviting suspicion, he introduced a number of variants when subsequently speaking to the press. Whilst undoubtedly risky, this was an approach that at least provided an element of insurance in context of the unknown witness factor."

        (My bold).

        The police were not likely to ask Hutchinson why he didn't enter the court itself. This would only have been necessary if Hutchinson had claimed to have been tailing the couple out of concern for Kelly's safety, but since he maintained that mere curiosity was the motivating factor behind his Dorset Street vigil, it would hardly have seemed unusual to them that he took it no further than the Miller's Court entrance. It only had a single entrance, and there was hardly any great mystery to the couple's whereabouts or likely activity(!). His press claim that he stood there to "see if they came out" is roughly consistent with what he told the police (and very consistent what with Lewis reported of her wideawake man's behaviour).

        Yes, it is likely that the police noticed the contradiction in the newspapers, along with all the other embellishments and contradictions, and these probably played a major role in his discrediting, which happened no-so-coincidentally soon after they were published. But no, it was not likely to result in him being converted into a suspect, because it was still just Hutchinson's word that he was ever there at all - ditto Violenia, who didn't acquire suspect status either, despite being in the identical situation of having been suspected of lying in his last-witness-to-see-victim-alive account. We might consider it slightly more of a potential red-flag today, but that's because we have knowledge of serial killers coming forward as witnesses that was unavailable to the police in 1888.

        All the best,
        Ben
        Last edited by Ben; 06-16-2015, 01:04 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Ben View Post
          Thank you, Abby!

          It is unfathomable to me that some people are getting this so badly wrong. Hutchinson makes quite clear the distinction between going "to the court" (i.e. waiting on Dorset Street outside the court entrance), and venturing "up the court" (i.e. entering the passage itself). The fact that different terminology was used in reference to these locations ought to be sufficient to eradicate any excuse for confusing the two.

          Equally perplexing is some people's insistence that there is no contradiction between the police and press versions of his evidence on this matter. Since we are in possession of proof that when Hutchinson used the expression "to the court", he did not mean actually entering it, it follows that the police statement has him waiting outside the court for three quarters of an hour and then going away, whereas the press version has him doing that plus venturing into the court "for a couple of minutes". If any seriously doubts this, I wonder if they wouldn't mind showing me where Hutchinson mentions waiting anywhere for just a "couple of minutes" in his police statement.

          That's the other problem, I'm afraid, for those who claim no contradiction exists: whatever location "to the court" referred to, Hutchinson's statement has him standing "there" for the full 45 minutes before departing the area altogether, not popping off somewhere else for a couple of minutes. And before anyone protests that the police statement was vague enough to allow for Hutchinson venturing in and out of the court at any stage during that time frame (with silly old Abberline presumably not bothering to extract just a little more specificity than that), back we go to to the newspaper versions of his evidence which create a clear distinction between "to" the court and "up" it.

          Just watch this turn into another thousand-post argument, though.

          All the best,
          Ben
          Yes Ben
          We have people here (incredibly) having a difficult time making the distinction and claiming the press and police versions are basically the same.

          And for those posters -I would reiterate that Hutch's press version addition goes to the material aspect of his claim-i.e. that he now is stating he knows where specifically where the victim lives. An important admission wholly missing from what he told police.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Ben View Post
            As for the question of why Hutchinson would create an additional lie about entering the court itself, having only informed the coppers that he stood in Dorset Street for the entire period, Garry Wroe offers a plausible suggestion in his book, Person or Persons Unknown:

            "Largely owing to Abberline’s belief in its integrity, Hutchinson’s statement was taken at face value. As a consequence, police efforts were concentrated on tracing the nonexistent Hebrew suspect, effectively leaving Hutchinson in the clear. Yet Hutchinson remained unaware of this and, within hours of interrogation, recognized that his version of events, courtesy of its hasty conception, contained flaws in several key areas. Uppermost in his mind was the possibility that he might unknowingly have been observed when entering the interconnecting passage, or indeed as he lurked outside Kelly’s room. (Mary Ann Cox, it should be noted, returned to the court at around three o’clock and may have been seen by Hutchinson.) Since any such revelation would have compromised both his story and his credibility, thereby inviting suspicion, he introduced a number of variants when subsequently speaking to the press. Whilst undoubtedly risky, this was an approach that at least provided an element of insurance in context of the unknown witness factor."

            (My bold).

            The police were not likely to ask Hutchinson why he didn't enter the court itself. This would only have been necessary if Hutchinson had claimed to have been tailing the couple out of concern for Kelly's safety, but since he maintained that mere curiosity was the motivating factor behind his Dorset Street vigil, it would hardly have seemed unusual to them that he took it no further than the Miller's Court entrance. It only had a single entrance, and there was hardly any great mystery to the couple's whereabouts or likely activity(!). His press claim that he stood there to "see if they came out" is roughly consistent with what he told the police (and very consistent what with Lewis reported of her wideawake man's behaviour).

            Yes, it is likely that the police noticed the contradiction in the newspapers, along with all the other embellishments and contradictions, and these probably played a major role in his discrediting, which happened no-so-coincidentally soon after they were published. But no, it was not likely to result in him being converted into a suspect, because it was still just Hutchinson's word that he was ever there at all - ditto Violenia, who didn't acquire suspect status either, despite being in the identical situation of having been suspected of lying in his last-witness-to-see-victim-alive account. We might consider it slightly more of a potential red-flag today, but that's because we have knowledge of serial killers coming forward as witnesses that was unavailable to the police in 1888.

            All the best,
            Ben
            Hi Ben
            thanks for posting that from Garry's book- I was unaware he said that.
            I have been saying that also:
            Hutchs addition of entering the court for the press, smacks of classic lying behavior, when the liar says he was somewhere, and later thinks someone saw him somewhere else, so changes his story accordingly.

            Comment


            • But the difficulty, surely, is why would he lie? I mean, he must have realized that any inconsistencies between the press reports and police report would be noticed. And as I've stated, the press reports themselves are not consistent on this issue, which raises the question as to whether the account was simply embellished , I.e by the reporter or Hutchinson himself. It seems to me that motive is the key issue here.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by caz View Post
                I agree entirely, Jon. I think a few posters are making something out of nothing here.
                Quite so Caz.
                Though, that is the nature of the beast. There are no satisfactory arguments available to condemn Hutchinson, so all that they have is to consistently try to make something out of nothing.
                Time and time again we are exposed to the same irrational logic, still it's free, and good for a laugh.


                If we look at this logically, Hutch's stated reason for going 'to' the court at all was to see if he could see the couple again there. When he failed to see them from the entrance to the passage, he'd naturally have gone 'up the court' to improve his chances ...

                And anybody in his position would do the same.
                Casually walk up the passage to the court, listen, look around, hearing nothing, seeing nothing, so just as casually walk back to the street, and wait around for about 45 minutes.
                Both the police and the press version said he waited the same amount of time, contrary to what someone wrote previously.


                The alternative, which I just don't buy (sorry, Abby) is that he volunteered a carefully thought out statement to the police, presumably as a result of being seen watching the court, and claimed to have done all this watching from the Dorset St entrance. Then he decided to tell the whole world, via the press, that he actually went right into the court where the victim's room was! What was he thinking, if this is the true version?
                Well, logically, if you said you went to the shop, I would assume you meant inside. I and everyone else is not going to assume to are going there to stand outside.
                So, to my mind when Hutchinson told police he went to the Court, he is saying to the open area at the other of the passage - that IS the court.

                The fact he may have paused momentarily at the entrance on Dorset St. to listen, then walk up the passage and look and listen again, and wait a couple of minutes, is all immaterial - this is what going to the Court meant.

                Like you say, just another desperate attempt to make something out of nothing.
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                  Constable is the rank, but you are either a member of the Police Service, to prevent crime, or you are a member of the Detective branch, who investigates crime.
                  Jon, this is over-simplistic. Detectives specialise in crime investigation but most crime is investigated and detected by uniformed officers.
                  "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                  Comment


                  • Though, that is the nature of the beast. There are no satisfactory arguments available to condemn Hutchinson, so all that they have is to consistently try to make something out of nothing.
                    Time and time again we are exposed to the same irrational logic, still it's free, and good for a laugh.
                    Straight in there with the unprovoked hostility, Jon.

                    But I'm afraid your feigned indignation is as pretentious as ever. You want a well-dressed, well-educated man to be the ripper, and the revival of Hutchinson's discredited evidence seems to play an integral role in your unsuccessful attempts to champion that particular outdated theory.

                    And anybody in his position would do the same.
                    Casually walk up the passage to the court, listen, look around, hearing nothing, seeing nothing, so just as casually walk back to the street, and wait around for about 45 minutes.
                    ...And then casually not informing the interrogating officer, resulting in the police casually assuming that Hutchinson stood in Dorset Street for the entirety of that vigil, as opposed to what he later informed the press, which is that he casually loitered outside the murder victim's window for a couple of minutes. Or did Abberline know all about the saunter up the court, but casually omitted to mention it in his report? Good job for knowing precisely what Hutchinson's "position" was, by the way - the rest of us, not being psychic, remain very much in the dark.

                    So, to my mind when Hutchinson told police he went to the Court, he is saying to the open area at the other of the passage - that IS the court.
                    For the full 45 minutes, or most if it?

                    And yet you continue to insist that there is no contradiction between his police and press accounts?

                    So, do tell - if you accept that Hutchinson stood outside Kelly's window "for a couple of minutes" as per the press claim, where was he for other 40 or so minutes he claimed to be in the vicinity of Miller's Court? And what happens to your previous insistence that Lewis corroborates Hutchinson if you now claim the latter was inside Miller's Court at 2:30am, when Lewis spotted her wideawake man outside Crossingham's?
                    Last edited by Ben; 06-16-2015, 04:55 PM.

                    Comment


                    • But the difficulty, surely, is why would he lie?
                      Various explanations have been offered, John.

                      One theory is that he was a two-a-penny publicity seeker, while another is that he recognised himself as the man seem by Sarah Lewis and hastily conceived a bogus story designed to legitimise his presence there.

                      I think that any discrepancies in Hutchinson's account are fairly minor, especially when you consider the numerous points of corroboration between the press account and police statement-at least 40 according to Sugden (2002).
                      Actually, thanks to Jon's sterling research efforts, we learn that the "points of corroboration" which so impressed Sugden were merely copy-and-pastes pilfered by journalists from the original police-provided release of Hutchinson's description for use in the Central News's 14th November re-telling of Hutchinson's story. What remains are significant deviations from the original police statement; not "minor" at all.

                      All the best,
                      Ben
                      Last edited by Ben; 06-16-2015, 05:12 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        Quite so Caz.
                        Though, that is the nature of the beast. There are no satisfactory arguments available to condemn Hutchinson, so all that they have is to consistently try to make something out of nothing.
                        Time and time again we are exposed to the same irrational logic, still it's free, and good for a laugh.





                        And anybody in his position would do the same.
                        Casually walk up the passage to the court, listen, look around, hearing nothing, seeing nothing, so just as casually walk back to the street, and wait around for about 45 minutes.
                        Both the police and the press version said he waited the same amount of time, contrary to what someone wrote previously.




                        Well, logically, if you said you went to the shop, I would assume you meant inside. I and everyone else is not going to assume to are going there to stand outside.
                        So, to my mind when Hutchinson told police he went to the Court, he is saying to the open area at the other of the passage - that IS the court.

                        The fact he may have paused momentarily at the entrance on Dorset St. to listen, then walk up the passage and look and listen again, and wait a couple of minutes, is all immaterial - this is what going to the Court meant.

                        Like you say, just another desperate attempt to make something out of nothing.
                        Make something out of nothing?

                        You show me where in the police statement hutch said he went up the court, stood there for a couple of minutes, and didn't hear any noise or sound coming from her house.

                        Can't do it. And no parsing of the statements, no twisted logic, no saying its no big deal by you can change it, no more than anything anyone says can change the fact the sun rises in the east.

                        It's also apparently lost on you that the press version has hutch admitting himself he knows exactly where the murdered victim lives. Something completely missing from the police statement and putting him that much closer to her house and the murder scene.

                        Comment


                        • I have been saying that also:
                          Hutchs addition of entering the court for the press, smacks of classic lying behavior, when the liar says he was somewhere, and later thinks someone saw him somewhere else, so changes his story accordingly.
                          Hi Abby - Having read the thread more thoroughly, I now notice that you have indeed raised this point yourself, and it remains a very strong one to my mind. It would amount to a simple case of covering all bases, if indeed he had something to hide.

                          All the best,
                          Ben

                          Comment


                          • Happy to hear you enjoyed the game Monday Ben, nice weather too, sadly they got well and truly thrashed last night.
                            Sorry to hear that, Jon! I also watched a Leafs game a few months ago which, alas, also resulted in a thrashing, but still a great experience. On my last day in Canada I took some pretty good photos from the CN Tower down onto the Rogers Centre, where the roof was open and a game in session.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Ben View Post
                              Straight in there with the unprovoked hostility, Jon.
                              I call it as I see it.
                              Nothing pretentious in being honest, the proof of ill conceived arguments lay in shreds behind you (the collective "you").

                              You want a well-dressed, well-educated man to be the ripper, and the revival of Hutchinson's discredited evidence seems to play an integral role in your unsuccessful attempts to champion that particular outdated theory.
                              Given that you already know I do not propose Astrachan as the murderer, I don't see the connection.
                              How does Hutchinson's statement lend itself to any particular type of killer?



                              ...And then casually not informing the interrogating officer, resulting in the police casually assuming that Hutchinson stood in Dorset Street for the entirety of that vigil, as opposed to what he later informed the press, which is that he casually loitered outside the murder victim's window for a couple of minutes. Or did Abberline know all about the saunter up the court, but casually omitted to mention it in his report? Good job for knowing precisely what Hutchinson's "position" was, by the way - the rest of us, not being psychic, remain very much in the dark.
                              Here we go again, as has been pointed out before, "we" do not know what he told the interrogating officer, the record has not survived. All we "know" is what Badham wrote down, and that was prior to his interrogation.
                              So lets judge Hutchinson on what we "know" - what was written down, things are likely to be much clearer to all sides.


                              For the full 45 minutes, or most if it?
                              As he says he, "stayed there a couple of minutes".
                              Then returned to the street for about 45 minutes - "to see if they came down again", so obviously, he was back in the street.
                              How did he estimate 45 minutes? - Does the Spitalfields clock chime on the quarter hour?


                              And what happens to your previous insistence that Lewis corroborates Hutchinson if you now claim the latter was inside Miller's Court at 2:30am, when Lewis spotted her wideawake man outside Crossingham's?
                              Where did I say he was inside the court at 2:30am?

                              If you read all Lewis's statements, she gives her arrival at the Britannia as 2:30, and elsewhere she says she arrived at the house at 2:30.
                              The times given by Lewis are of no consequence, they were not verified.
                              So its no good you trying to pin anyone down to specific minutes when clearly Lewis was not sure to begin with.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by John G View Post
                                But the difficulty, surely, is why would he lie? I mean, he must have realized that any inconsistencies between the press reports and police report would be noticed. And as I've stated, the press reports themselves are not consistent on this issue, which raises the question as to whether the account was simply embellished , I.e by the reporter or Hutchinson himself. It seems to me that motive is the key issue here.
                                Hi johnG
                                The motive is either lying for 15 minutes of fame or because your a killer.

                                At the very least hutch is a no good piece of **** liar who tried to cash in on a so called friends horrific murder and effed up the subsequent search for justice for the victim.

                                Comment

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