Why did Abberline believe Hutch ?

[Bridewell]

Ever considerd the possibility that the police didn't really believe Barnet or Hutchinson but put them under surveillance.By giving the impression they were both believed they would be relaxed enough to try another murder.

The problem there is that, in an internal police report addressed to his seniors, Abberline expressed the opinion that Hutchinson's story was true. That he believed him initially is thus a matter of record. He may have changed his mind subsequently and then put Hutchinson under surveillance at that point - or he may not - but the initial belief in Hutchinson's story was, quite clearly I think, genuine.

[Bridewell]

I see no reason at all to diss Abberline when it comes to the Hutchinson errand. And as far as we can tell, neither did his superiors.

Well said, sir!

[Ben]

And it has been a real pleasure all along.

The pleasure's been all mine, David, and as I said, it's fantastic to have you back with us. Your sensible posts are always valued and appreciated. Now when are you next heading to London? I owe you about five Ardbegs by now.

All the best,
Ben

[Sally]

It is evident from his 1903 interviews that Abberline was ultimately convinced that Chapman was the Ripper due to his long term views - for him, Chapman fulfilled the majority of his prior expectations.

One of those expectations was clearly that the Whitechapel Murderer was a foreigner - as he says himself:

All agree, too, that he was a foreign- looking man,--but that, of course, helped us little in a district so full of foreigners as Whitechapel

If, as seems to be suggested here, Abberline was predisposed to look for a 'foreign-looking' man, it's hardly surprising that he initially believed Hutchinson in 1888.

[Wickerman]

If, as seems to be suggested here, Abberline was predisposed to look for a 'foreign-looking' man, it's hardly surprising that he initially believed Hutchinson in 1888.

We should hope the acceptance of a witness statement rests on considerably more than that.
Abberline was an experienced detective, a detail which is sometimes overlooked.

[GUT]

G'day Sally

If, as seems to be suggested here, Abberline was predisposed to look for a 'foreign-looking' man, it's hardly surprising that he initially believed Hutchinson in 1888.

If he had such a predisposition, which I doubt, maybe bit was based on what Hutchinson told him.

[DVV]

The pleasure's been all mine, David, and as I said, it's fantastic to have you back with us. Your sensible posts are always valued and appreciated. Now when are you next heading to London? I owe you about five Ardbegs by now.

All the best,
Ben

Hi Ben,

Perhaps beginning of August. If I could see you quickly after my arrival, that would be perfect for the little work I'm planning to achieve. Believe me, we may have something to celebrate, and I'm even ready for Laphroaig...
I'll doss in Tarleton Court (dunno where it is), an old Ethiopian friend live there.

Many thanks mate

[DVV]

Will an insane Barrister do?

Hi Jon,

No, I'm afraid. Not at the relevant time : Automn 88.

Cheers

[DVV]

Amusing narrow-mindedness

Just a last quick comment on this thread.

All of us are, or should be, aware that Phillips and Baxter did influence the investigation... I thought it was well-known...and accepted.
Investigation : in other terms, human beings, such as...Abberline...especially since he himself seems to acknowledge that influence in the PMG.

But if you dare to suggest so on a Hutch-thread, the anti-Hutch squad gets immediately infuriated, and forgets the basic knowledge we should share.

It's delightful.

[DVV]

Will an insane Barrister do?

The one Macnaghten introduced as a "doctor" ?

Thanks, Jon.

[Wickerman]

It is evident from his 1903 interviews that Abberline was ultimately convinced that Chapman was the Ripper due to his long term views - for him, Chapman fulfilled the majority of his prior expectations.

One of those expectations was clearly that the Whitechapel Murderer was a foreigner....

It is also notable that since 1903 until his death in 1929 Abberline appears to have made no further mention of his, apparently short-lived, theory.
Perhaps, one of those flashes of inspiration that are momentarily significant, but then fade under the weight of more accurate recollections.
Abberline's reminiscences, extend to forty pages, makes no mention of this Chapman-Ripper theory. (Wojtczak, p. 215.)

As to the Ripper being a foreigner, this idea gets one point from Mrs Long, but loses a point by Schwartz, and another by PC Smith, and loses another point by Lawende. It may have gained back one short-lived point with Hutchinson, but then lost it again due to Mrs Cox.
So we are apparently (negative) -2, and possibly -3, as far as the "foreign suspect" goes.

The legitimately identified suspects, acknowledged by police, appear to have no noticeable "foreign" traits.

[RockySullivan]

Wickerman, and then sgt whites story was someone that looked foreign but actually wasnt (i think?). So thats about somewhere in the middle and could account for the confusion perhaps

[The Good Michael]

As to the Ripper being a foreigner, this idea gets one point from Mrs Long, but loses a point by Schwartz, and another by PC Smith, and loses another point by Lawende. It may have gained back one short-lived point with Hutchinson, but then lost it again due to Mrs Cox.
So we are apparently (negative) -2, and possibly -3, as far as the "foreign suspect" goes.

Schwartz and Lawende probably wouldn't have used the term "foreigner" for personal and political reasons. They would have just used details and would have avoided any feelings of the man they saw being possibly Jewish.



Mike

[Ben]

Expect a PM shortly, David!

Hi Jon,

There is no evidence - and no good reason - to assume that Abberline ever revised his opinion on Klosowski. His memoirs don't mention the ripper murders at all, let alone his Klosowski theory associated therwith. Had he ever found cause to revise his opinion, one would reasonably have expected him to correct the record, rather than allowing his last recorded words on the subject to be the promulgation of a theory he no longer invested in.

So we are apparently (negative) -2, and possibly -3, as far as the "foreign suspect" goes.

That certainly wasn't how the police went about assessing eyewitness evidence. They weren't goals to be scored, and they certainly weren't all invested with the same significance. Lawende, for instance, had considerably greater value than Long on account of the fact that the latter never saw her suspect's face. PC Smith was considered a genuine and accurate witness, but the man he saw may not have been the ripper (and so on).

The legitimately identified suspects, acknowledged by police, appear to have no noticeable "foreign" traits

Pizer? Issenschmidt? Kloswoski? Kosminski? Isaacs (Ha!)? Ludwig?

All seem pretty "foreign" to me.

Regards,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Schwartz and Lawende probably wouldn't have used the term "foreigner" for personal and political reasons. They would have just used details and would have avoided any feelings of the man they saw being possibly Jewish.



Mike

True Mike, they didn't use the term. Though not suggesting ethnicity is no guide to the ethnicity of the suspect.

In the case of Schwartz, it is from the surviving police files that we are left to believe (due to the known usage of "Lipski" by Gentiles against Jews) that the man seen by Schwartz was "not likely" a Jew.

No known "foreign" traits recognised among the majority of legitimate suspects.