Why did Abberline believe Hutch ?

[Fisherman]

Fish,

it's clearly your reply that goes out of the window.
You're implying that I have accused Abberline to have looked exclusively for an expert-surgeon since 1888, and this just shows how easily you lose your head.

Cheers

Where is the answer to post 114, David?

I want it, and you need to give it.

Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

No, not "students". Specifically medical students.

Cheers

True Dave.
But Swanson wrote: "Enquiries were made to trace three insane students who had attended London Hospital".

Because they were "insane", or because they had "medical knowledge"?
(What medical knowledge DID they have?)

Were the police interested in all men who had been deemed "insane", and released? - Yes!
Were the police equally interested in all men who had "medical knowledge"? - No!

So we know they searched for those three students because they were deemed/suspected "insane". Not, because they were medical students.

[GUT]

G'day Jon

Were the police interested in all men who had been deemed "insane", and released? - Yes!
Were the police equally interested in all men who had "medical knowledge"? - No!

I think that the police were actually interested in ALL men.

[Wickerman]

I think that the police were actually interested in ALL men.

Generally speaking yes, but this exchange has been more about men with "medical knowledge" being a priority (or something along those lines).
Swanson reported that 2000 lodgers in Common-lodging-houses and been spoken to in the Stride case alone. Along with over 300 'persons suspected' whose whereabouts had been looked into.

So yes I agree, generally speaking they knew their suspect was somewhere among the male population

[GUT]

G'day Jon

That was really my point.

Yes they were interested in men with medical knowledge and yes they were interested in men without medical knowledge, and yes they were interested in men who were insane and yes they were interested in men who were sane.

So naturally men with medical knowledge and mental problems were given a bit of extra interest.

[Wickerman]

So naturally men with medical knowledge and mental problems were given a bit of extra interest.

Right, but "medical knowledge" does not automatically translate into "surgeon".

These students may have known how to give an enema, or lance boils, but they were students, not surgeons.

The fact they were deemed "insane" appears to be the overriding factor.

[GUT]

G'day Jon

Right, but "medical knowledge" does not automatically translate into "surgeon".

These students may have known how to give an enema, or lance boils, but they were students, not surgeons.

No argument with that.

The fact they were deemed "insane" appears to be the overriding factor.

And I don't think that many would doubt that whoever committed these crimes was "sick".

They may or may not have been legally insane, but mentally unbalanced almost certainly.

[Admin]

Please refrain from hijacking threads with off-topic suspect conversation. You are always welcome to begin a new thread to in the appropriate location and discuss your suspect there.

Thank you.

[DVV]

True Dave.
But Swanson wrote: "Enquiries were made to trace three insane students who had attended London Hospital".

Because they were "insane", or because they had "medical knowledge"?
(What medical knowledge DID they have?)

Were the police interested in all men who had been deemed "insane", and released? - Yes!
Were the police equally interested in all men who had "medical knowledge"? - No!

So we know they searched for those three students because they were deemed/suspected "insane". Not, because they were medical students.

Hi Jon,

How cute. So you think their interest for those medical students has no relation whatsoever with the "work" of the Whitechapel murderer as some understood it ?

Try it with "insane accounting students" and tell me.

Cheers

PS : thanks Admin !

[GUT]

G'day DVV

Hi Jon,

How cute. So you think their interest for those medical students has no relation whatsoever with the "work" of the Whitechapel murderer as some understood it ?

Try it with "insane accounting students" and tell me.

Cheers

PS : thanks Admin !

They were interested in "insane" street people, so why not "insane" accountants.

[Ben]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but suffice it to say I agree with David entirely.

Abberline described the "first series" of crimes as the work of an "expert surgeon", and cited the views of Phillips and Baxter from the Chapman inquest. Evidently therefore, the level of "expertise" he attributed to the ripper originated from September of 1888, when those views were first aired, and not years afterwards as some appear to be suggesting. People can argue all that want that Abberline "upgraded" the ripper's skill in accordance with his latest Klosowski theory, but that would serve no purpose other than to undermine Abberline as an unbiased and discerning source. A sudden investment in the Klosowski theory doesn't change the medical evidence from the period any more than a sudden investment in the Cross theory "changes" the crime scene evidence from the Stride murder, and Abberline would have appreciated this. If he didn't, he was no different from modern-day suspectologists who filter all evidence through the requirements of their suspect theory and then "change" it when it doesn't meet those requirements. In which case, he certainly shouldn't be considered an accurate judge of Hutchinson's truthfulness or non-culpability.

Issenschmidt’s apparent lack of surgical “expertise” is not at odds with Abberline’s statement. According to Abberline, he was the “most likely” suspect thus far encountered, which could mean that even if he considered him unlikely, he still fared better than the other no-hopers. Certainly, Issenschmdt’s presumed anatomical experience would have been considered a plus, and there can be no naysaying the reality that “mad” people and foreigners were high on the list of suspects too. Issenschmidt was still a largely unknown entity, and should further investigation have demonstrated that his butchery skills fell considerably short of the requirements set down by Phillips (with Baxter’s support), Abberline may well have ditched him.

Abberline also made clear, well before he’d even heard of Klosowski, that he had ruled out lodging house dwellers as potential suspects, despite the fact that his superiors evidently did not share that view and continued to investigate lodging houses throughout the investigation. Unfortunately, it is apparent that his only reason for dismissing “dosser” suspects was because he had made “friendly relations” with some of the “shady folk” who inhabit common lodging houses, and who had been eager to “assist the police”. Hutchinson was certainly in luck if he did have something to hide, if that was Abberline’s true mentality. If, as the evidence supports, Abberline was in pursuit of anatomically skilled suspects who weren’t dossers (because they’re helpful and friendly, even if a bit shady), it was looking pretty good for Hutchinson if he was the killer hoping to pull the wool.

Regards,
Ben

[DVV]

True Dave.
But Swanson wrote: "Enquiries were made to trace three insane students who had attended London Hospital".

Because they were "insane", or because they had "medical knowledge"?

Hi Jon,

Easy guess. Just try it with "Enquiries were made to trace three insane accounting students".
Insane+medecine = the Whitechapel murders.
Alas, it was a plasterer.

Cheers

[DVV]

I'm a bit late to the party here, but suffice it to say I agree with David entirely.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Actually, I can't remember, after more than 6 years, of a single significant disagreement. It's not only about suspects, but more importantly about the general understanding of the case (the bayonet, the precanonical cases, Stride, the GSG, and so on).

And it has been a real pleasure all along.

Your only shortcoming is that you're not fluent in broken-English.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

Easy guess. Just try it with "Enquiries were made to trace three insane accounting students".

Will an insane Barrister do?

[Bridewell]

forgot one:
7. serial killers are known to be pretty good liars.

Which is relevant if Hutchinson was a serial killer - but not otherwise.