Hutchinson and Blotchy

[Fleetwood Mac]

It may be that Hutchinson was suspicious of the man but not 100% sure he was a killer but rather it was in the back of his mind. He may have felt after 45minutes he had waited long enough to be fairly sure he wasn't. It could be that he did not want to admit this to the press. Fearful of criticism maybe? You could have stopped him if you were suspicious? We will never know but is is possible. His claim that to see such a well dressed man with Kelly may just have aroused general suspicion? Who is he and what does he want with her? That's unusual to see there must be something up? This seems to be what he told Abberline he watched them for. Could he have loiterered for that same reason? You are correct I am surmising and I can't say for certain Abberline even asked him but going on what we have it seems Abberline was interrogating Hutchinson's statement almost line by line.

The Ripper lived in the area. Eddowes apron being dropped where it was showed his direction of travel right back into the heart of Whitechapel.

I agree in that we'll probably never know, but it is a hole that means Hutchinson is not telling all he knows. That missing part could be something entirely innocent, or it could be something more sinister. You could probably write a list of 100 reasons in the space of a few minutes as to why he would omit his reason for watching the court and the surrounding streets. In the absence of supporting statements and evidence, all possibilities are simply too much of a leap of faith.

He's broadly heading in that direction but it's not clear cut that he's ending up around the Spitalfields area.

[Wickerman]

On what basis? Hutchinson claims to have met the deceased at a time- 2am which cannot be ruled out by any other witness or circumstance. He claims to have been loitering opposite the Court between say 2:15am and 3am. Sarah Lewis described a man standing opposite the Court at 2:30am looking up the court as it'll waiting for someone. Hutchinson describes a man dressed rather elegantly. However Booth's man shows us that there were indeed areas of 'middle class- well to do' people and therefore the description is not the wild abnormality sometimes portrayed.....

I thought I would just emphasize your last point by supplementing it with Booth's map showing the 'red' (Middle-class well-to-do), buildings up the east side of Commercial St. where Astrachan first appeared.



So many have convinced themselves this was not an area for a man so well-dressed to be at night.

[erobitha]

She might have been in a pub and recognised Bury’s Black Country accent (as she was a Black Country girl herself of course) This might have led to Bury becoming either a regular client or just a bloke that she met up with regularly as two strangers from the same place can. Pure speculation of course.

She had most likely had a Bermondsey accent not a midlands one. Look at the timeline of her early life.

[Sunny Delight]

I thought I would just emphasize your last point by supplementing it with Booth's map showing the 'red' (Middle-class well-to-do), buildings up the east side of Commercial St. where Astrachan first appeared.



So many have convinced themselves this was not an area for a man so well-dressed to be at night.

The vast majority in the area were either comfortable having good ordinary earnings or middle class well to do, probably shopkeepers, tailors, landlords etc. It does seem a fairly safe area compared to some of the others further east which had build ups of vicious semi criminal elements. You make an excellent point- could AK man have been walking home when he encountered Kelly propositioning Hutchinson(most likely) and took his chance opportunistically. Could it be that he 'dressed down' to commit the other crimes and this was the reason his description seems somewhat at odds with say Joseph Lawende's? It's an idea.

[Herlock Sholmes]

She had most likely had a Bermondsey accent not a midlands one. Look at the timeline of her early life.

Very possibly Ero, but she would certainly have recognised Bury’s accent if she’d heard it. Pure speculation the of course.

[Fleetwood Mac]

So many have convinced themselves this was not an area for a man so well-dressed to be at night.

The problem being we're talking of Dorset Street specifically, as opposed to the entire Spitalfields area, and George Hutchinson did in fact say he was surprised to see 'the well dressed man' in Dorset Street. From what I have read, there was such a thing as slumming it among the more wealthy but this involved donning 'lower-class' clothes. According to commentators of the time, you wouldn't want a watch nor any jewelry on show in the pubs in this area. The common lodging houses of the day earned the nickname: 'Thieves' Kitchens'.

On balance, I'd say you probably wouldn't want to be wandering 'round Dorset Street after midnight with valuables on show nor insinuating you had money in your pocket.

[Sunny Delight]

The problem being we're talking of Dorset Street specifically, as opposed to the entire Spitalfields area, and George Hutchinson did in fact say he was surprised to see 'the well dressed man' in Dorset Street. From what I have read, there was such a thing as slumming it among the more wealthy but this involved donning 'lower-class' clothes. According to commentators of the time, you wouldn't want a watch nor any jewelry on show in the pubs in this area. The common lodging houses of the day earned the nickname: 'Thieves' Kitchens'.

On balance, I'd say you probably wouldn't want to be wandering 'round Dorset Street after midnight with valuables on show nor insinuating you had money in your pocket.

He wasn't wandering around Dorset Street though he was led there by the victim. He had seemingly met her as she went towards Thrawl Street where he was standing at the corner. Hutchinson had already passed the man standing there before he met Kelly. Also Hutchinson was not suprised to see a well dressed man in the area he saw him but moreso the fact he was with Kelly.

[Fleetwood Mac]

He wasn't wandering around Dorset Street though he was led there by the victim. He had seemingly met her as she went towards Thrawl Street where he was standing at the corner. Hutchinson had already passed the man standing there before he met Kelly. Also Hutchinson was not suprised to see a well dressed man in the area he saw him but moreso the fact he was with Kelly.

Thrawl Street being a couple of streets down from Dorset Street. 'Same conclusion in that we're not talking of the entire Spitalfields area.

I think you have a decent argument when you say: "moreso the fact he was with Kelly".

Initially, Hutchinson passes the man but doesn't claim to be overly interested in him when the well dressed man is by himself.

It's not clear, however, at what point Hutchinson's suspicions are aroused and how much of the man's attire he saw when he walked past him initially. In Hutchinson's initial statement given to the police, he states: "I stood against the lamp of the Queens Head public house and watched him. They both came past me." You could reasonably conclude that the first good look at the well dressed man is when he is with Mary and not when he walked past him initially. There are a few possibilities from there, and one is that Mary walking down the street with him is merely incidental to Hutchinson's suspicions.

In addition, nowhere does George Hutchinson state he is suspicious because the well dressed man is with Mary, he merely states he is suspicious of the well dressed man's appearance.

I take your point though, and you could make a case for either of those two possibilities.

[Sunny Delight]

Thrawl Street being a couple of streets down from Dorset Street. 'Same conclusion in that we're not talking of the entire Spitalfields area.

I think you have a decent argument when you say: "moreso the fact he was with Kelly".

Initially, Hutchinson passes the man but doesn't claim to be overly interested in him when the well dressed man is by himself.

It's not clear, however, at what point Hutchinson's suspicions are aroused and how much of the man's attire he saw when he walked past him initially. In Hutchinson's initial statement given to the police, he states: "I stood against the lamp of the Queens Head public house and watched him. They both came past me." You could reasonably conclude that the first good look at the well dressed man is when he is with Mary and not when he walked past him initially. There are a few possibilities from there, and one is that Mary walking down the street with him is merely incidental to Hutchinson's suspicions.

In addition, nowhere does George Hutchinson state he is suspicious because the well dressed man is with Mary, he merely states he is suspicious of the well dressed man's appearance.

I take your point though, and you could make a case for either of those two possibilities.

Yes but if you look at Wickerman's post showing Booth's map we can see the immediate area had some well to do and some comfortable classes. In fact Dorset Street is almost an outlier as it is the only area shaded as vicious and semi criminal. Many have a stereotypical view of the East End as a den of streets containing the destitute and criminal. That wasn't the case at all. AK man was dressed well yes but considering the area he wouldn't have looker wildly out of place, far from it.

Hutchinson wasn't interested in the man but he remembered passing him. What strikes me and it is surmising but AK man must have seen Hutchinson being propositioned and when Kelly then moved on he took his chance to approach her knowing she was looking for business. Was he waiting there for someone to come along and unluckily for Kelly it was her?

[Fleetwood Mac]

No, he didn't come forward because of Sarah Lewis.

I think he must have seen Sarah Lewis assuming they were both in the street when they said they were, given that Sarah Lewis states the man is looking up the court as she walks through the passage. In the event Hutchinson had read Sarah Lewis's statement and his whole purpose is to offer up a suspicious man, he would surely have mentioned seeing a woman go up the court in order to add credence to his statement that he was there and he did see a suspicious man. It seems clear to me that Hutchinson is not putting himself forward as 'wideawake man'.

You can only reasonably deduce that one of them has their timing out or at least one of them is lying. I think it's too much of a stretch to accept that Hutchinson simply forgot to mention her, particularly when he was emphatic on who he had seen, including the policeman (which reasonably argues away from the proposition that Hutchinson is talking of suspicious people only) walk down an adjoining street.

[Fleetwood Mac]

Yes but if you look at Wickerman's post showing Booth's map we can see the immediate area had some well to do and some comfortable classes. In fact Dorset Street is almost an outlier as it is the only area shaded as vicious and semi criminal. Many have a stereotypical view of the East End as a den of streets containing the destitute and criminal. That wasn't the case at all. AK man was dressed well yes but considering the area he wouldn't have looker wildly out of place, far from it.

Hutchinson wasn't interested in the man but he remembered passing him. What strikes me and it is surmising but AK man must have seen Hutchinson being propositioned and when Kelly then moved on he took his chance to approach her knowing she was looking for business. Was he waiting there for someone to come along and unluckily for Kelly it was her?

Thrawl Street has the same shading.

Regardless, we're not talking of well dressed people during the day. We're talking of a 'well dressed man' walking about at 2 to 3 in the morning in an area with various common lodging houses known locally as 'Thieves's Kitchens'. On balance, and taking the map into account, it would be a huge risk to walk around that area at the time of night looking like you may have something worth taking.

I was watching a documentary on Mumbai slums yesterday. As it's a developing city, you have brand spanking high rise apartments for people to live in springing up in the middle of slum areas. The various classes are mixing on the streets because they live so close together and it's unavoidable. That is entirely different, however, to the more wealthy hanging around the slums, on their own, at 2 to 3 in the morning.

In terms of Mary openly touting for business, Hutchinson certainly sets that scene.

[Sunny Delight]

Thrawl Street has the same shading.

Regardless, we're not talking of well dressed people during the day. We're talking of a 'well dressed man' walking about at 2 to 3 in the morning in an area with various common lodging houses known locally as 'Thieves's Kitchens'. On balance, and taking the map into account, it would be a huge risk to walk around that area at the time of night looking like you may have something worth taking.

I was watching a documentary on Mumbai slums yesterday. As it's a developing city, you have brand spanking high rise apartments for people to live in springing up in the middle of slum areas. The various classes are mixing on the streets because they live so close together and it's unavoidable. That is entirely different, however, to the more wealthy hanging around the slums, on their own, at 2 to 3 in the morning.

In terms of Mary openly touting for business, Hutchinson certainly sets that scene.

The point is though that AK man was dressed well but for the area he was in this was not extraordinary as is sometimes portrayed. It may have been risky at that time of night for sure but I don't see it as something that could not be true. It is sometimes used to discredit Hutchinson but it is pretty clear as I keep saying well to do people lived in the locality and others were very comfortable earning a good wage meaning they had the means to be dressed as AK man was. Thrawl Street had a majority of ordinary earners and towards one end of the street were semi criminal elements. At the other end you encountered the well to do. Such was life in the east end.

I think Hutchinson was genuine. I think he told the truth and I would argue AK man was our best chance of identifying JTR. Surmising again but I do wonder if the killer got spooked by Hutchinson's statement to the papers. Was the description quite accurate to spook him? Was Hutchinson fancying he had seen him at Petticoat Market and saying he lived in the area send him underground until re-emergeing with Alice McKenzie months later?

[Wickerman]

I think he must have seen Sarah Lewis assuming they were both in the street when they said they were, given that Sarah Lewis states the man is looking up the court as she walks through the passage.

I'm sure he did see Lewis, just as sure as I am that Lewis was not the only woman walking along Dorset St. He no doubt told Badham about this young woman who came down Dorset St., but Badham isn't interested in women. He is interested in whether there were any other men in the street at that time, and more to the point, specifically suspicious men.

[Wickerman]

Thrawl Street has the same shading.

Regardless, we're not talking of well dressed people during the day. We're talking of a 'well dressed man' walking about at 2 to 3 in the morning in an area with various common lodging houses known locally as 'Thieves's Kitchens'. On balance, and taking the map into account, it would be a huge risk to walk around that area at the time of night looking like you may have something worth taking.

Why would you think it is a huge risk?
Are you suggesting all the owners, residents, workers, tenants, in those 'well-to-do' premises observed their own self imposed curfew?
Or, perhaps is it more likely some later-day authors have exaggerated any perceived dangers?
Which is most likely?

[Sunny Delight]

Why would you think it is a huge risk?
Are you suggesting all the owners, residents, workers, tenants, in those 'well-to-do' premises observed their own self imposed curfew?
Or, perhaps is it more likely some later-day authors have exaggerated any perceived dangers?
Which is most likely?

Indeed. Did you watch the BBC programme The Victorian Slum which was on TV a few years ago. It took 21st century residents and had them live in a 'slum' for six weeks with each week representing how people lived in that decade. Week one was the 1860's, week two was the 1870's etc. I thought it did an excellent job of portraying slum life and the different social statuses within the slum. You had the shopkeepers and tailors who earned a good living and lived in good comfortable lodgings, the destitute who could not make ends meet and ran up arrears in rent before moving on elsewhere and starting the cycle again, those who treaded a fine line and ran the risk of destitution if unforseen circumstances occurred, immigrants who arrived with only the clothes on their back and sometimes worked their way to a better life and those who used the Common lodging house- sometimes choosing between eating and a roof over their head. It was an excellent show.