A closer look at George Hutchinson

[Michael W Richards]

This is up there with some of the maddest thinking I have seen on this case. Remarkable. Over a century of investigations have shown us that 4 days is actually a really quick turnaround to make oneself available to the Police. But then I don't think you really care about that do you.

I really dont care that you dont agree Sunny, correct. You didnt even distinguish between the various types of witnesses before proclaiming 4 days is a "quick turnaround". By all accounts there is nothing that would or should prevent George from coming in as soon as possible after hearing of the murder.

Since you seem to skip by any conventional thinking, what reasons do you imagine George Hutchinson would have to delay 4 days before coming forward with an eyewitness account of someone he calls a "friend" who he saw in the company of a man who by all intent and purposes would then likely have been her killer? You know that old thing....last person seen with the victim? Fear? Of whom? What changed on Monday to set his alleged fears aside? Fear of public speaking....I guess thats why he skipped the Inquest then.

Any salient person would know that a suspect sighting with the deceased would be very important to the authorities investigation. So, did he just not like cops then? Or did he figure he would give old A man fair head start out of the country?

It would be prudent to remember that George himself sought to establish a supposed friendship with the deceased, and he didnt have to come in at all if he wasnt her friend.

[Sunny Delight]

The point stands though that Hutchinson was not a person of interest at the time but rather appearing to actually be a valuable witness instead.

I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

c.d.

Wideawake Man was obviously a key person of interest once Sarah Lewis described him loitering outside Millers Court at 2am in the morning. Hutchinson for all intents and purposes appears to have been exonerated by Abberline as he said he believed his information was important. Nothing we have seems to suggest Hutchinson subsequently became of interest again at a later date.

[Sunny Delight]

I just thought Id mention that the inverse of your preliminary conclusion is likely more accurate, it does indeed seem too elaborate and detailed to have not been at the every least embellished, if not an outright fabrication. As I mentioned before, the fact that we know of someone that moved in around the corner into Little Paternoster Row a few days before the murder then left abruptly the night of the murder, whose description is undeniably very similar to Hutch's Astrakhan Man, might lend credence to a suggestion that this report was intended to point to that same man. And intended to downplay any notion that Wideawake Hat Man was perhaps an accomplice. Hutchs story suggests it was simply one "friend" looking out for another. It would seem the Pardon for Accomplices offer, up until that time never really seriously considered a viable way to obtain information, must have been due to that loitering man seen by Sarah. There is nothing in the murder itself that indicates 2 men or more were likely involved.

I used the word intended above a few times, because I dont believe his intentions coming in Monday night, 4 days later, and after the Inquest had adjourned, were to provide the police with an important lead. Had that been the truth, he would have surfaced later Friday or Saturday knowing that as valuable time ticks away the value of his story diminishes.

4.....days....later.....

This is up there with some of the maddest thinking I have seen on this case. Remarkable. Over a century of investigations have shown us that 4 days is actually a really quick turnaround to make oneself available to the Police. But then I don't think you really care about that do you.

[Wickerman]

[I]... And even if it appears that Abberline "believed" his story we don't know if he simply believed it was more likely to be true than not or if he believed it to be true to such an extent that he would be willing to wager the souls of his wife and children on it...

We also do not know to the extent Abberline investigated Hutchinson's story.
Hutch was with the police for several hours after giving his statement to Inspector Badham, then Abberline was sent for and Hutch then sat with him and, in following procedure, Abberline would read through Hutchinson's statement and use it to further question him to obtain more details.

Abberline knew of Sarah Lewis and her statement seeing Wideawake man, the police had her address, they could have gone to find her and bring her to the station to identify Hutchinson.
Abberline could have brought beat constables who patrolled Dorset & Commercial St. to see if they can confirm any part of the story.

The press do report that following Hutchinson's appearance detectives were sent to Millers Court the following day to re-interview tenants and they obtained statements that confirmed Kelly was out after 2:00 am.

"Nothwithstanding that no evidence was produced at the coroner's inquiry to show that she left her apartment after one o'clock, at which hour she was heard singing, there is every reason to believe that she came out after that hour. This circumstance will account for the fact that no light was observed in the room after one o'clock, as stated by one of the witnesses at the inquest. The police have received statements from several persons, some of whom reside in Miller's-court, who are prepared to swear that the deceased was out of her house and in Dorset-street between the hours of two and three o'clock on the morning in question. It has been established to the satisfaction of the police that the unfortunate woman had been murdered at three a.m. or thereabouts on Friday morning."
Morning Advertiser, 14 Nov. 1888.

[JeffHamm]

Hi RD.
...

I would suggest the correct attribution is only a concern after the killer is caught, no killer that I have ever read about was concerned about him getting the true credit for his crimes before he was caught, to the extent that he would step forward and inject himself into the case. I maybe wrong, but none come to mind.

The one I can think of is Dennis Radar (BTK). The police had 3 fellows, either arrested for or under suspicion for, one of his crimes. He wrote to the police telling them they had the wrong people, and that he, and he alone, was responsible.

Of course, he did so by posting a letter, and didn't go speak in person to the police (he didn't want his name to be known, but he did want credit). I believe he also wrote to indicate he was not responsible for another crime that was being suggested might be by "BTK".

Now that being said, such behaviour is very rare. The vast majority of serial killers do not prefer the police to even link their cases, let alone to become the focus of public out cry. That sort of thing just makes it harder for them to commit their next offense after all. An unsuspecting public, combined with police not combining information over multiple cases, is all to the benefit of the serial killer after all.

Hmm, Zodiac is sort of the opposite in a way. He wrote multiple letters/post-cards, continuously claiming an ever increasing number of victims. However, I don't think the police ever found any credible information to link him to any murders beyond the one's he's known for (although some have suggested Cherri Jo Bates, much earlier, and also the abduction of Kathleen Johns (who he flashed his lights at to get her to pull over, claimed her tire was loose and he would fix it, then actually loosened it so her car's wheel fell off, then abducted her when he convinced her to get in his car to take her to a garage, etc). Kathleen escaped her abductor and when reporting to the police said the composite drawing of Zodiac that was on the wall was her abductor. Now, what is interesting, is that while it appears Zodiac was willing to increase his victim count (probably artificially), I don't think he ever wrote a letter claiming either of those. His objective appeared more about keeping his name in the press while at the same time misdirecting police (trying to get them to work out what other crimes he committed).

Anyway, I'm digressing. The important point is that while Dennis Radar would fit the bill, like you, I'm hard pressed to think of another example. That in turn implies that this sort of behaviour appears to be very rare, making it a pretty big stretch to presume that JtR just happens to be perhaps the only other person to do such a thing.

- Jeff

[Filby]

I just thought Id mention that the inverse of your preliminary conclusion is likely more accurate, it does indeed seem too elaborate and detailed to have not been at the every least embellished, if not an outright fabrication. As I mentioned before, the fact that we know of someone that moved in around the corner into Little Paternoster Row a few days before the murder then left abruptly the night of the murder, whose description is undeniably very similar to Hutch's Astrakhan Man, might lend credence to a suggestion that this report was intended to point to that same man. And intended to downplay any notion that Wideawake Hat Man was perhaps an accomplice. Hutchs story suggests it was simply one "friend" looking out for another. It would seem the Pardon for Accomplices offer, up until that time never really seriously considered a viable way to obtain information, must have been due to that loitering man seen by Sarah. There is nothing in the murder itself that indicates 2 men or more were likely involved.

I used the word intended above a few times, because I dont believe his intentions coming in Monday night, 4 days later, and after the Inquest had adjourned, were to provide the police with an important lead. Had that been the truth, he would have surfaced later Friday or Saturday knowing that as valuable time ticks away the value of his story diminishes.

4.....days....later.....

Good points. Sorry much for missing your post about the sighting and suspicious activity of possibly AK Man days before. But Hutch would have had to have a good memory for detail (under pressure to) to recall all this within Abberline's questioning. Seeing leaves quite more of an impression but Hutch having previous knowledge of AK Man sightinmg does give me pause to reconsider.

[c.d.]

On Abberline and Hutch, I think it's possible that Abberline didn't know whether to believe Hutch or not. So since he thought it was possible that what Hutch was saying was true, he looked for the man that Hutch described because he wanted to follow every possible lead, even if the lead wasn't an especially strong one.


Agree. Belief can cover a spectrum. And even if it appears that Abberline "believed" his story we don't know if he simply believed it was more likely to be true than not or if he believed it to be true to such an extent that he would be willing to wager the souls of his wife and children on it. We don't know where he fell on that spectrum.

We also don't know whether he wavered from his initial belief as time passed.

c.d.

[Lewis C]

I agree with Abby that Hutch doesn't have an alibi. There's no such thing as an uncorroborated alibi. If it can't be proven to be true, it's not an alibi.

Where I disagree with Abby is that if you're going to claim that Hutch's story is false, then you can't use Hutch's story to exonerate Blotchy.

On Abberline and Hutch, I think it's possible that Abberline didn't know whether to believe Hutch or not. So since he thought it was possible that what Hutch was saying was true, he looked for the man that Hutch described because he wanted to follow every possible lead, even if the lead wasn't an especially strong one.

[c.d.]

The point stands though that Hutchinson was not a person of interest at the time but rather appearing to actually be a valuable witness instead.

I don't think those two things are mutually exclusive.

c.d.

[Sunny Delight]

I think the biggest question surrounding Hutchinson is could he have been the Ripper or somehow involved in Kelly's murder? A bigger question than even the veracity of his story. My feeling is that unless the police were absolute total idiots and hopelessly incompetent he would have been viewed as a person of interest big time. Admitted to knowing the victim and was with her shortly before she died. Big time red flags. Since he apparently faded into history shortly after I have to conclude that the police were confident he was not their man. Does that mean he could not have been the Ripper? No, but that is about as good as we are going to get.

c.d.

I think a lot of value is placed on his loitering and following Kelly back to her flat. It was certainly weird behaviour- difficult to explain. Human nature doesn't change and if someone was to that in this day and age serious questions would be asked. For all we know Hutchinson was a real weirdo but being a real weirdo doesn't make someone a murderer who enjoys mutilating women.

[Sunny Delight]

The Star, NOV 15TH:

"Another story now discredited is that of the man Hutchinson, who said that on Friday morning last he saw Kelly with a dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with the dark moustache turned up at the ends, who wore the soft felt hat, the long dark coat, trimmed with astrachan, the black necktie, with horseshoe pin, and the button boots, and displayed a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached.

As we have already said, the only piece of information of any value which has yet transpired is the description given by the widow Cox of a man - short, stout, with a blotchy face and a carroty moustache - who at midnight on Thursday went with the murdered woman into her room."

Abberline is among the investigators who had many opinions....."the Pall Mall Gazette in 1903 Abberline put forward the idea that George Chapman may have been the Ripper saying "...I cannot help feeling that this is the man we struggled so hard to capture fifteen years ago."...and, ..."Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago."

Then he says this..."...Morland claimed that Abberline told him that the case was shut and that "I've given my word to keep my mouth permanently closed about it."

And...."I know and my superiors know certain facts."and that the Ripper "...wasn't a butcher, Yid or foreign skipper...you'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up."

Why is it you and others seem to hold Abberline in such high regard, clearly by the above, he is either intentionally misleading or he has an opinion that changes with his change of socks.

It is actually your own bias on show here. I am suggesting that as Abberline believed Hutchinson and went as far as sending Detectives around the neighbourhood with him to identify Aman, the Police did not view him as a person of interest. Do I put 100% faith in that? Well that is a separate question. I do value Abberline's opinion quite highly- he looked in Hutchinson's eyes and in his own words interrogated him for 3 hours. But Abberline was a human being and human beings can be wrong and make mistakes.

The point stands though that Hutchinson was not a person of interest at the time but rather appearing to actually be a valuable witness instead.

[c.d.]

I think the biggest question surrounding Hutchinson is could he have been the Ripper or somehow involved in Kelly's murder? A bigger question than even the veracity of his story. My feeling is that unless the police were absolute total idiots and hopelessly incompetent he would have been viewed as a person of interest big time. Admitted to knowing the victim and was with her shortly before she died. Big time red flags. Since he apparently faded into history shortly after I have to conclude that the police were confident he was not their man. Does that mean he could not have been the Ripper? No, but that is about as good as we are going to get.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

...

Im often surprised at the things I am expected to respond to Jon......all day Friday, all Day Saturday, all Day Sunday and until Monday night is easily considered 4 days. And you argue with me like 3 days is somehow more acceptable.

"Later" Michael, "three days later" - this discounts Friday, three days "later", is Sat. Sun. Mon. = 3 days later.

It's just basic English Michael.
If Hutch had come forward on Friday, it wasn't a day later, was it. It was the same day.

So your belief is that Hutchinson could not have learned of Marys fate on Friday?I can find a few papers that printed articles on the murder on NOV 9th, and the fact that they were published in the evening means that any people reporters found that offered some information did so...during the day...

I've been through them all Michael.
There is nothing on Friday or Saturday to suggest Kelly was killed about 3:00 am - all we have in the Friday papers is Morris Lewis's tale about him seeing her between 8-9 am.
We then read Maxwell's account on Saturday, also suggesting Kelly was killed after 9:00 am.

The public only believed Kelly had been murdered after 9:00 am, therefore Hutchinson must have believed the same.
They did no such thing, the articles said that she was discovered that morning...and by the state she was in it was obvious that she had been killed sometime during the night.

Of course she was discovered that morning, that has nothing to do with an estimated time of death.
If you think you know of an article from Friday or Saturday where the police think she was killed before 9:00 am, please post it.

No problem, as she definitely was not murdered after 9am. Plenty of facts suggest a killing in the dark hours of the night.

The authorities didn't have any facts pointing to a time of death before the results of the post mortem, on Sunday.
I've been through every London daily & evening paper, you can't bluff me

The discovery of her death Jon was in the morning, you just keep repeating incorrect material.

Yes, it was in the late morning, and people swore they saw her alive at, or before 9:00 am - have you forgotten?

Bond guessed as much on Saturday.

Are you suggesting Dr Bond & Hutchinson were best mates?
Dr. Bonds notes were an estimate for Anderson, not for public knowledge. Hutchinson didn't know Kelly had been murdered so early in the morning. All he knew was that two people claimed to have seen her alive & well until after 9:00 am, so he knew by their statements that his friend Kelly must have been alive at the late hour. Which means the man he saw her with at about 2:30 am, couldn't have been her murderer. This was 6-7 hours before Maxwell last saw Kelly.

The mystery here is why you continue to hold on to things that are very obviously erroneous misrepresentations.

I have quotes for everything I have told you, unlike yourself.
You are ignoring factual information Michael, you're off on some tangent to goodness knows where.....

You are building a theory based on conjecture & a misunderstanding of the evidence.

[c.d.]

"Another story now discredited...

Who discredited his story? How did they arrive at that conclusion?

You discredit Abberline as a bumbling oaf but treat a newspaper article as the Word of God. I think you have it backwards.

c.d.

[Michael W Richards]

12) Was he a person of interest? Surely Abberline believing his testimony exonerated him.

The Star, NOV 15TH:

"Another story now discredited is that of the man Hutchinson, who said that on Friday morning last he saw Kelly with a dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with the dark moustache turned up at the ends, who wore the soft felt hat, the long dark coat, trimmed with astrachan, the black necktie, with horseshoe pin, and the button boots, and displayed a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached.

As we have already said, the only piece of information of any value which has yet transpired is the description given by the widow Cox of a man - short, stout, with a blotchy face and a carroty moustache - who at midnight on Thursday went with the murdered woman into her room."

Abberline is among the investigators who had many opinions....."the Pall Mall Gazette in 1903 Abberline put forward the idea that George Chapman may have been the Ripper saying "...I cannot help feeling that this is the man we struggled so hard to capture fifteen years ago."...and, ..."Scotland Yard is really no wiser on the subject than it was fifteen years ago."

Then he says this..."...Morland claimed that Abberline told him that the case was shut and that "I've given my word to keep my mouth permanently closed about it."

And...."I know and my superiors know certain facts."and that the Ripper "...wasn't a butcher, Yid or foreign skipper...you'd have to look for him not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up."

Why is it you and others seem to hold Abberline in such high regard, clearly by the above, he is either intentionally misleading or he has an opinion that changes with his change of socks.