Hutch evidence

[Wickerman]

I'll bet we can't find one other news story of this event (other that a paper that copied the original). It was mostly bogus (confronting Sadler). It even fooled Sugden.

There are a few stories that we only have one example of, a circumstance in itself which proves nothing.
Newspapers often reject more stories than they print, though if you have evidence of this being bogus, that would be of interest.
Then again, it might be just your gut feeling?
By the way, Sugden would have been the last author to claim he was infallible.

[Scott Nelson]

I'll bet we can't find one other news story of this event (other that a paper that copied the original). It was mostly bogus (confronting Sadler). It even fooled Sugden.

[Wickerman]

We don't even know that.

This is true....

Circumstantially though, the sparse details fit the only witness to provide the description.

[Scott Nelson]

All we know is they used Lawende.

We don't even know that.

[Wickerman]

agree. wonder why they apparently didnt use him as a witness?

To be fair, we wouldn't know whether they did or not. All we know is they used Lawende.

You & I both agree they should have, so perhaps they did, an identity parade is not a public affair so the press wouldn't know if the PC was called to the cell as the witness for the ID.
No police paperwork has survived to tell us that part of the story, but the press had access to Lawende so maybe that is why we have his story in the papers. Lawende could have been the second choice of police, neither him nor the press would have known this.
It was mentioned in the press that reporters would often sit at the station watching who came and went, ready to pounce on the next chapter of the case as it unfolded.
If they saw Lawende walk in, they would pounce on him as he walked out, thats why we have the story. But, PC Smith worked there, so no pressmen at the front lobby of the station would think anything unusual was going on. So they wouldn't be aware of any ID parade involving PC Smith.

If Smith was used, as their first choice, his response must have been, "it isn't him" (Sadler). Otherwise, no need to use Lawende for a second opinion.

[The Baron]

I do think it was PC Smith whom Macnaghten meant when he wrote about the only witness who saw the killer, "was the City PC in Mitre Square".
He misremember Berner st. for Mitre Sq.

Macnaghten didn't say "the only witness who saw this killer"


And Druitt was Not the suspect, and will never be.


The Baron

[Abby Normal]

Absolutely, my thoughts exactly.
In my mind it's one of the biggest questions of the case.

In fact, I do think it was PC Smith whom Macnaghten meant when he wrote about the only witness who saw the killer, "was the City PC in Mitre Square".
He misremember Berner st. for Mitre Sq.

Of course, if this is the case then the man with the parcel was the killer, which has been my belief all along.

agree. wonder why they apparently didnt use him as a witness?

[Wickerman]

I agree with this. I posted on another thread about officer Donald Fouke's description of a suspect (the zodiac) at night time in the Presidio heights area of San Fran in the 1960s. He description was detailed but no way as detailed as Hutch. The difference being is that Fouke was an experience police officer (Hutch is not. He's a Victorian labourer),....

Steady on Mr. T.
Until Hutchinson is identified we do not know what his profession had been.
I'm not sure if you know this but a Groom (for horses) must have an eye for detail. A Groom represents the owner (at horse shows), he must be well dressed, polite, respectful and have the same standards as his boss - the owner of the stables.
If this was his true profession, as he claimed, then this explains why he was described as "of military appearance".

...... I have run Hutch's suspect description past a few friends who are serving police officers. Their responses were "this is absolute BS", "i've been working homicide for 4 years and usually when we hear stuff like that it sends up a big red flag"

I'm not sure if you know Stewart Evans, career police officer, author of The Jack the Ripper Sourcebook, but he was on here for a few years and he saw no problem with the level of detail. Another policeman, writes under 'Bridewell', equally had no problem with what Hutchinson said.

I personally have no problem either, it's not like Hutch only caught a passing glimpse of the man. He passed right under his eyes, beneath a street light, and was in view for maybe 5 minutes or more, before the couple walked up Mitre Square passage.
If you stood and stared at a stranger for about 5 minutes or more I'll bet you could make a list of details too.

[Wickerman]

A quick Google seems to reveal 'American cloth' as a term used in the nineteenth century for oilcloth (linen cloth with a layer of boiled linseed oil). Something which makes me think of my grandmother's table cloth.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/american_cloth

They still sell it today. Back in the 70's it was motorcycle gear in the UK. Today it's called Waxed Cotton.

[Wickerman]

hey wick
ive often wondered why they didnt use PC smith as a witness later on. any thoughts on this?

Absolutely, my thoughts exactly.
In my mind it's one of the biggest questions of the case.

In fact, I do think it was PC Smith whom Macnaghten meant when he wrote about the only witness who saw the killer, "was the City PC in Mitre Square".
He misremember Berner st. for Mitre Sq.

Of course, if this is the case then the man with the parcel was the killer, which has been my belief all along.

[Curious Cat]

Oilcloth - Wikipedia

A quick Google seems to reveal 'American cloth' as a term used in the nineteenth century for oilcloth (linen cloth with a layer of boiled linseed oil). Something which makes me think of my grandmother's table cloth.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/american_cloth

Thanks for that.

I recognise what it is now. It's the sort of thing you get on cafe tables. It's makes it all the more interesting a detail. A practical waterproof material to transport, say, bloody organs. Is Hutchinson pointing in that direction? Oilcloth is certainly different from newspaper both materially and visually.

But separate from that, in the same newspaper article, Hutchinson describes the man he saw as looking like a foreigner. In his police statement he says he heard the man speak. In neither the article or the statement does he say anything about an accent, which he surely would've picked up on as he says he heard the man talk to Mary Kelly. Given all the details he puts forward that one seems like a glaring omission.

[MrTwibbs]

Hi there, personally I think they dropped him as a witness cause it was obvious he was not telling the truth, at least in some regards. His vivid recall of the suspect is just beyond the bounds of possibility for me. If he lied about that he may have been lying about the rest of his testimony. There are so many conflicting descriptions of the victims appearances let alone the villains that I take them all with a pinch of salt myself.

I agree with this. I posted on another thread about officer Donald Fouke's description of a suspect (the zodiac) at night time in the Presidio heights area of San Fran in the 1960s. He description was detailed but no way as detailed as Hutch. The difference being is that Fouke was an experience police officer (Hutch is not. He's a Victorian labourer), it was a well lit area with modern lighting (compared to the dark Millers court/commercial road) and his patrol car headlamps were on. Fouke was on the look out of a suspect as Paul Stein's murder had been recently committed in that area. I have run Hutch's suspect description past a few friends who are serving police officers. Their responses were "this is absolute BS", "i've been working homicide for 4 years and usually when we hear stuff like that it sends up a big red flag"

[seanr]

Hutchinson tells the Pall Mall Gazette (14th Nov) that the man he saw was carrying a parcel covered in "American cloth".

Was American cloth something that was distinctive at the time?

A quick Google seems to reveal 'American cloth' as a term used in the nineteenth century for oilcloth (linen cloth with a layer of boiled linseed oil). Something which makes me think of my grandmother's table cloth.

https://www.lexico.com/definition/american_cloth

[Abby Normal]

Hi Mr. T.
We know from Abberline's own words that he interviewed Hutchinson following the statement given to Sgt. Badham at 6:00pm on the 12th.
A written record of this interview has not survived, so we cannot criticize him by asking, "Why didn't Hutchinson say this, or that", when we have no record of exactly what was said in the interview.




I think you are confusing opinions of the press with police opinion.
Many years after the case I think Anderson said something similar, yet Anderson was only trying to bolster his personal theory.
I don't think you will find any official police opinion contemporary with the murders that supports that line of thinking.




I've never understood that question. What is it based on?
Every witness faded from the case after a few days, except one. The only example we have of a witness who was contacted years later is Lawende, and the reason should be quite obvious. Lawende had a permanent business address where the police knew they could find him.
Citizens like Schwartz, Mrs Long, Hutchinson, possibly Mary Cox, all were tenants, renters, who as like most Eastenders would move around with no forwarding address, or in some cases use different names.
Of course they are going to use the one witness they could find within the hour.




After Abberline retired he developed his own personal theory that George Chapman had been the killer, and most of what he said was geared to align with that theory.

hey wick
ive often wondered why they didnt use PC smith as a witness later on. any thoughts on this?

[DJA]

Oilcloth - Wikipedia