Innocent, By George!

[lynn cates]

kids

Hello Caroline. Well spoke.

And now factor in Toppy's age--just the kind of behaviour one would expect from a youth.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

why?

Hello Malcolm.

"this means that the top brass weren't that sure if GH was lying or not, because to suspect G.Chapman must have meant that the MJK sighting was still bothering them.... for sure !'

I don't understand. You mean because of their superficial resemblance? Of course, Chapman was a youth in 1888--about Toppy's age.

Cheers.
LC

[DVV]

[QUOTE=Malcolm X;203380
this means that the top brass weren't that sure if GH was lieing or not, because to suspect G.Chapman must have meant that the MJK sighting was still bothering them.... for sure !

[/QUOTE]

Hi Malcolm, Abberline is quite confused, I admit, but I think you're wrong.

"The people who alleged they saw JTR at one time or another state that he was a man about 35 or 40 years of age. They, however, state that they only saw his back." (Abberline 1903)

Apparently this vague "they" refers in first instance to Mrs Long, which seems to be confirmed by Abberline alluding previously to a peaked cap.

It can't refer to Hutch, whose description of the suspect's face was remarkably detailed (eyebrows, eyelashes). Mrs Long's suspect and Hutch's are both foreigners, that's all, but Abberline has clearly forgotten or dismissed Hutch in 1903.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Malcolm.

"this means that the top brass weren't that sure if GH was lying or not, because to suspect G.Chapman must have meant that the MJK sighting was still bothering them.... for sure !'

I don't understand. You mean because of their superficial resemblance? Of course, Chapman was a youth in 1888--about Toppy's age.

Cheers.
LC

well yes, GC resembles LA DE DA very closely, even in age, simply because he looked about 34...... GC is one of those blokes who has an old face, i've seen this quite often, sallow/ sunken/ pot marked and at night quite old looking indeed... we have had many waiters from Europe that look like him, they look miles older than Brits.

no if someone from the top brass said this, then they were probably thinking about GH, because Chapman is highly suspicious anyway, but he needs GH for this to be so as well.

[Malcolm X]

GH describes LA DE DA too well, yes, but not if he saw him...... you are missing the obvious here, because if so, he saw LA DE DA very well indeed.i could easily describe you if you were this suspect, just as well.... dont forget that GH stared at him for ages.

but is this true..... AAH, that's something else entirely.

dont fall into Ben's trap of assuming too much, because he knows that i can really turn the tables if i want to, you have nothing on GH as JTR, your suspect is not strong enough and could quite easily be Toppy telling the truth.

this telling the truth can be seen as being too good to be true and thus a lie, take care of this. many of you Hutchinsonites are assuming too much, i.e.

1.... the signatures look too close
2....GH is a bit too much familiar to this area
3....you've found no other GH.

GH could have seen JTR, and added to this we have the likelihood that he was indeed there, so GH is a problem for sure, but seeing LA DE DA too well is easily explained away by the possibility that it could be true, however strange it seems

[GregBaron]

Not horrible Chapman.....

Hi all,

I have a hard time believing Astro-Man was a 22 year old - swarthy and leather faced or not. If Hutchinson could see his eyelashes I imagine he could make a decent guess on his age. I also wonder where George Chapman would get such fancy threads? Not to mention that it's very debatable whether the 22 year old Chapman could even speak English. No, I don't think our misogynist poisoner was the eviscerating night stalker.

How this ostentatiously dressed Jew disappeared so quickly is a difficult question but if he knew he was sighted and reported he might return to his old well worn shabby genteels......

If Astro-Man existed, I prefer Lord Churchill or Lynn's Millen to the young Chapman...or Koz or Druitt or Tumblety for that matter.


Greg

[Malcolm X]

it is not a case of what JTR looked like, that's different because we all know that these sightings can be wrong by at least 50%.

it's did GH see JTR, because it looks like the top Brass weren't sure either, simply because of G.Chapman

but, what is important is, if this sighting is true.... it CAN NOT BE WRONG BY 50% due to human error, i.e due to not seeing the suspect well enough.

NO NOT AT ALL, this suspect was seen full 360% and more than once, he was followed, eyeballed up and down, heard talking, stared at full face... this is not BS OR LAWENDE.

I'm just saying, because i'm not sure, even so take care of this, because when you say, ``this suspect description is crap because he saw LA DE DA too well``....... i say no, not if it's true.

i think to suspect GH, you need to drop your reliance on the suspect description being false and look to other things.

it was said of G.Chapman that he used to dress like this, go out at night on his own etc and sometimes have a black bag..... it's not necessarily true, but not necessarily false either, the witness in court said this, ``he hasn't aged a day since i first met him and he's the same LA DE DA dresser now as he was back then ``

``always pretending to be someone he wasn't, a LA DE DA poser`` he is exactly the same, as a more evil version of Tumblety.

anyway i'm swaying like crazy, i'm about fit to fall off the fence

[Malcolm X]

yes you are partly right, but to me Chapman is weak with regards to Stride and Eddowes, very much so,
especially Stride, this to me swings the pendulum back to GH.

the last 3 murders to me are very fixated and also quite easy to understand, i see little movement here.

finally, i very much doubt that JTR left a murder scene carrying a black bag and looking like LA DE DA, this is just rediculous and so Hammer house of horror.

is there any other alternative?...yup JTR is two people and GH is providing an ALIBI for someone else... this could be Blotchy Face.

Blotchy face after the 10th was described as evasive, sullan and irritable, he definitely didn't like being seen and was not nearly as drunk as she was.

whatever the case, GH looks as if he's in deep trouble doesn't he, because the one thing that it looks like, is that due to the Cox woman that he was there !

GH cant be traced, oh of course not, it's a false I.D.

[DVV]

I'm just saying, because i'm not sure, even so take care of this, because when you say, ``this suspect description is crap because he saw LA DE DA too well``....... i say no, not if it's true.

Aha. And you say no if it's not true, I presume.

I say yeah yeah.

[Lechmere]

Yes Caz has raised some very moot points about Hutchinson and his likely reaction to his few minutes of fame

[Carol]

If Toppy is THE Hutchinson, could it be that all those years before he 'cashed' in on Kelly's murder and first presented himself as a witness to the police on the Sunday, after working out quite a good little story. After all, I doubt he felt he could loose anything, but might gain some money from it. I can't find a witness statement that says Hutchinson was seen himself on the night of the murder. Please tell me if I've missed one!

I would think in this case Toppy would have told his son how he 'was the Hutchinson witness' but left out that he had made it all up.

Please forgive me if one of you has already written this, although I have read through all the posts on this thread. I am getting on a bit (I'm 65) so please have patience with me!

Carol

[DVV]

Hello Carol

what amuses me is that the Toppy relatives are said to bear a grudge against those who disbelieve them.

Actually, they should be thankful.

We're not saying their grandfather was the bastard that procrastinated three days long, or three long days, as vital was his evidence in the murder of a woman he had known for no less than three years.
We're not saying either he was that idiot who talked to the press at the very time he was looking for the suspect with the police.

God watches us all.

[Malcolm X]

Hi all,

. Not to mention that it's very debatable whether the 22 year old Chapman could even speak English. No, I don't think our misogynist poisoner was the eviscerating night stalker.

.Greg

sorry i didn't notice this, 80% of our migrant workers from Europe speak English well, it's only the uneducated few from the villages/ the remote areas etc, that dont.

G.Chapman had quite a lot of education before coming over here and was quite a hard worker once he was over here too, he was definitely not your average migrant, he would have spoken English well, probably as well as GH, I meet immigrants all the time in my job at the hotel......unfortunately, far too many and this is where we're going wrong.

but someone like GC, who had drive and ambition would have spoken English, he was also a womaniser, a con-man, someone who made a living via talking to people or serving them in his shop, and later on someone who pretended to be American..... all of this requires knowledge of English.

[Malcolm X]

Hello Carol

what amuses me is that the Toppy relatives are said to bear a grudge against those who disbelieve them.

Actually, they should be thankful.

We're not saying their grandfather was the bastard that procrastinated three days long, or three long days, as vital was his evidence in the murder of a woman he had known for no less than three years.
We're not saying either he was that idiot who talked to the press at the very time he was looking for the suspect with the police.

God watches us all.

aren't we

[caz]

..."what amuses me is that the Toppy relatives are said to bear a grudge against those who disbelieve them."

Hi DVV,

Would you say that your own candidate for GH would have been the kind of man to bear a grudge against anyone who disbelieved him? If so, you can surely see how this could be a family trait.

Love,

Caz
X