Did Hutchinson get the night wrong?

[Rubyretro]

Sally - I brought this up earlier..but don't you think that it's strange that it's the blokes here that have the 'my little pony' theory to the supposed relationship between Hutch and the pretty, young 'working girl' ?

The women on these threads seem far more pragmatic, I think..

[Sally]

Sally - I brought this up earlier..but don't you think that it's strange that it's the blokes here that have the 'my little pony' theory to the supposed relationship between Hutch and the pretty, young 'working girl' ?

The women on these threads seem far more pragmatic, I think..

Women have to be pragmatic, Ruby. That's the way of the world...

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"here's a quick 'peck' anyway..."

And to you!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Lechmere:

"I think Hutchinson was probably Toppy – and if he was he probably romanced up his story to his son (he would have been an elderly father) some 40 or 50 years after the events unfolded. "

I am convinced that he was Toppy, Lechmere. But that aside, I think you may be on to something important with the embellished story. And this is why:
I work from the presumption that Hutchinson was a day off. But as can be seen from Dewīs comments, Hutch himself obviously did not concur with the police on the matter. If he had, Dew would not have suggested a muddled up date - he would have treated it as an established fact.

So where does this scenario lead us, with a police force that tells Hutchinson that they are most grateful for his offer to help, but equally sure that he had muddled the dates, and a Hutchinson that claims that he had done no such thing?
It leads us to a man that spends the rest of his days brooding on how he had been undeservedly sidestepped, thatīs where. And to my mind, if this holds true, I think it would be very human to somewhat "guild" the drama when telling it to your son many decades afterwards.
Moreover, IF we have a scenario such as this, and IF Hutch was dead sure that he had the dates right, but STILL he was snubbed by the police - would it not be a viable suggestion that Hutchinson somehow came to believe that his observation of astrakhan man was something the police had decided to cover up? (This is exciting, since I have never before been in the conspiracy business. Of course, I am only so in presenting a conspiracy scenario on behalf of Hutchinson, but still...!)
Could it not be that something like this lay behind a growing suspicion on Toppys behalf (for Toppy it was!), that the astrakhan man enjoyed protection from the police, and that this protection pointed straight up to the top of the pillars of society? And was this why he confided to Reg that the man he saw was a very high ranking man societally?

I think this makes for an interesting suggestion. Iīm sure everybody will agree

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

at last

Hello Fish. Well, finally your thoughts begin to coincide with us wing nut people's thoughts. (heh-heh)

Now, compare the description of astrakhan with Frank Millen. Interesting, no?

Cheers.
LC

[Rubyretro]

Could it not be that something like this lay behind a growing suspicion on Toppys behalf (for Toppy it was!), that the astrakhan man enjoyed protection from the police, and that this protection pointed straight up to the top of the pillars of society? And was this why he confided to Reg that the man he saw was a very high ranking man societally?

Ok -you're tired of this..just capitulate Fishy..you're not convinced and it's not even worth arguing as a joke.

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates:

"Now, compare the description of astrakhan with Frank Millen. Interesting, no?"

Not really. Millen was twenty years too old to have been astrakhan man, was he not? And please remember that I am not ascribing to any conspiracy theory myself; far from it - I am only suggesting a scenario in which Toppy may have had sentiments along that line after having been discarded by the police!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"it's not even worth arguing as a joke"

A good thing, then, that I am NOT arguing it as a joke!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

By the bye, Lynn, there IS a man involved in it all that may be a nice fit for astrakhan man, but itīs not Millen. Iīll leave you to ponder on who I mean. A smart looking fellow...!

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Randolph Churchill !!

Well, if you mean to win the 'last word' not by serious argument but by playing the conspiracy theory/bore them to death card, then effectively you've nearly lost me already...

Surely it would be a hollow victory though..?

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

" if you mean to win the 'last word' not by serious argument but by playing the conspiracy theory/bore them to death card, then effectively you've nearly lost me already..."

I would not want to do THAT, would I? And indeed, I am not playing any conspiracy card at all, Ruby. I am looking at the caserelated specifics only. And I do not think for a moment that astrakhan man was any pillar of society, nor one of the highest in the country. But Toppy may have gotten such a thing into his head, after having been dispatched by the police.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

As far as I can see, I actually hit you on a nerve with my observation about the problem of reconciling Hutchinson's statement with Reg Hutchinson's recollections about his father.

Therefore, you have decided not to approach the whole matter by eating 'humble pie' -as I was forced to do - but as you are more pig headed than me, you have decided that you will make the puzzle fit, come what may !

It doesn't fit ! That's life !

[Fisherman]

Ruby:

"As far as I can see, I actually hit you on a nerve with my observation about the problem of reconciling Hutchinson's statement with Reg Hutchinson's recollections about his father."

On the contrary, Ruby - I just offered a useful explanation to it.

"you have decided not to approach the whole matter by eating 'humble pie'"

Thatīs what comes from offering useful explanations.

"It doesn't fit ! That's life !"

No, thatīs YOU, Ruby.

The best,
Fisherman

[Ben]

“Dorset Street was not "busy" at the time we are speaking of, judging by the evidence. Itīs doss houses would have been "crowded" but the street in itself was emphatically not.”

I never suggested otherwise, Fisherman.

However, the amount of “noise” that would undoubtedly have been generated from a combination of sources, including the buildings themselves that lodged thousands in crowded conditions, would have been sufficient, in my opinion, to prevent a conversation from being heard 30 metres away. This was still the heart of the East End of London. I strongly suspect that this factor, more than any other, played a significant role in the failure of two genuine witnesses to detect individual words from ten feet away. It is essential, when addressing these issues, to focus on the contemporary evidence that adjudged reliable by the contemporary police, and continued to be considered so years after the murders took place.

Hi Sally,

“I think there is ample evidence to endorse the view that what one considers 'quiet' depends on what one is accustomed to hearing. 'Quiet' is defined chiefly as below the noise level considered 'normal'”

Absolutely! This is precisely what I sought to demonstrate last night with my Villiers Street example. It was both “quieter than normal” and quiet in isolation from any other considerations, and yet it was still the heart of London, and there was still too much competing outdoor sounds for me to hear conversations a short distance away, a reality that clearly came into play in quiet Duke Street in 1888, even with comparatively fewer competing sounds back then.

All the best,
Ben

[Rubyretro]

No, thatīs YOU, Ruby.

The best,
Fisherman[/QUOTE]

No ! Thats YOU , Fish..

The ball is firmly in your court to explain your brand new 'theory'.