Did Hutchinson get the night wrong?

[The Good Michael]

Whatever. Dealing with Hutchinsonites is like talking to someone with multiple personality disorder only all personalities resemble perrymason and Crystal. It really isn't worth my effort to try and educate you.

Bye

[Lechmere]

On Reg Hutchinson – Ben in the excerpt you present he has clearly moulded his opinions after being told what to think, as an old man, by Fairclough.

While it is obvious that people of all sorts of different shapes and sizes would have been in the army – even the US army, (save from midgets and grotesquely fat people I would suggest) if someone uses an expression similar to ‘military bearing’ then it would be with reference to the archetypal image of a soldier that was then in common currency. That is why Victorian military imagery always conformed to a stereotype. Otherwise the expression ‘military bearing’ would have no meaning. This is self evident.

Stout as in beer implies stodgy and a bit heavy. Like Guinness. It is well named. Don’t like the stuff.

Ben...
If Hutchinson was the Ripper would you not agree that it would be unlikely that he would sit to have his portrait sketched? Given that most witnesses who were sketched appeared at inquests, I think it unlikely that any true life sketch was done of him, innocent or guilty.

With reference to the picture of Hutchinson with his hands on hips looking at Kelly and Mr A, I can’t see a child with chocolate on his face. Maybe I’m no good at ink block tests. In that picture Hutchinson looks like a retired Guards Officer.

Ben, do you think Abberline thought Kennedy was the same person as Lewis?

There were numerous avenues for the police to check on Hutchinson if they wanted to. Why was he in Romford? His comings and goings at the Victoria Home. Whether Lewis or anyone else recognised him. His whereabouts when the other crimes were committed. His clothing could have been closely inspected. Details of his workplace – the police always liked details of people’s workplace. Did he still have the knife – if so where did he keep it? A search to find the policeman he spoke to (there can only have been a few contenders). Proof that Hutchinson was his name – where his family were from. And so on.

Regarding Jack London’s lodging house – near Middlesex Street. You had a very lengthy discourse with Fisherman about what near the Britannia meant. I actually agreed with your reading which meant it had to be on the same side as the Britannia (I think between the Britannia and the market in fact). This is because there are plenty of other landmarks on the other side of Commercial Street that would have been used as a locator, and also Commercial Street is a big and wide road.
Can you not see that you are employing the logic you used to bolster your argument for near the Britannia in reverse in trying to make out that Jack London’s lodging house was the Victoria Home.
The Victoria Home was on Commercial Street. After Whitechapel High Street that is easily the next biggest and most important road in the neighbourhood. So it is unlikely anyone would describe the Victoria Home as being near Middlesex Street.
Even allowing for Jack London’s polemical exaggeration, his description does not correlate with other what we know about Victoria Home – even what the kitchen was like, beyond its location downstairs.

Special pass again. Ben, I said they discouraged late night entry as they didn’t want drunks coming in late. That is why they had a curfew system. That is why they issued special passes. The obvious inference is that special passes were issued if inmates gave a good reason that they needed one such as work.
Clearly if someone abused it and just went out late and got drunk then one might suppose that they would get chucked out. The reason they maintained records was so that they could get rid of people who abused the place (they clearly turned a blind eye to people being a little tipsy by the way). Just because they vetted people do you think they would have then taken everyone on trust for ever more?
Ben you are making heavy weather of this. These things are obvious. Do I really need to spell these obvious things out?

[The Good Michael]

Lechmere,

Stout beer was not stodgy. It was originally considered a strong beer, but later it was just about the character of the beer. Yet, the idea of strength still lingered in America when the importing laws required Guinness to be at least 5% alcohol. That changed in the last 2 decades or so, and now the Guinness we get is the same.

Mike

[Lechmere]

Ureka - not stout

[Sally]

I like stout. Nothing wrong with stout. Out of curiousity, where did this 'military appearance' thing first come from? I like Lechmere's pictures - maybe Tabram's soldiers looked a bit like that.

[Rubyretro]

While it is obvious that people of all sorts of different shapes and sizes would have been in the army – even the US army, (save from midgets and grotesquely fat people I would suggest) if someone uses an expression similar to ‘military bearing’ then it would be with reference to the archetypal image of a soldier that was then in common currency.

You might be right Lechmere -but that stereotype amongst the general population of the East End in 1888 might not be what we would imagine today. I would imagine that if you asked a habituee of a pub in a town with a military barracks, today, to give a portrait of a stereotypical soldier, -it might not be what we would neccessarily expect.

Stout as in beer implies stodgy and a bit heavy. Like Guinness. It is well named. Don’t like the stuff.

It was named to attract customers. It's still going today, and lots of people like it (me neither !)

If Hutchinson was the Ripper would you not agree that it would be unlikely that he would sit to have his portrait sketched? Given that most witnesses who were sketched appeared at inquests, I think it unlikely that any true life sketch was done of him, innocent or guilty.

I don't suppose that he did 'sit for his portrait'. Most of the portraits of people involved in the case are quite accurate (where we can compare them).
Hutchinson having his picture in the paper, (if he were the Ripper !) could account for the murders stopping.

There were numerous avenues for the police to check on Hutchinson if they wanted to. Why was he in Romford? His comings and goings at the Victoria Home. Whether Lewis or anyone else recognised him. His whereabouts when the other crimes were committed. His clothing could have been closely inspected. Details of his workplace – the police always liked details of people’s workplace. Did he still have the knife – if so where did he keep it? A search to find the policeman he spoke to (there can only have been a few contenders). Proof that Hutchinson was his name – where his family were from. And so on.

Bob Hinton proves in his book that there was a large amount of building work going on in Romford at this time (after floods ??).
A worker like Hutchinson, with jobs in different towns, as a nightwatchman, in pubs and doubtlessly on the docks, markets etc would have totally odd hours changing from day to day.
He would naturally have a knife for work.
An 'alias' would not be unusual at the time.
It would be impossible to find macro-drops of blood or DNA, and relatively easy to pawn clothes and get other ones from the same source.

Alot of the 'checks' would have relied on 'character references' and if Hutch was a persuasively manipulative character...there you go.

I agree with Ben, that without CCTV it was impossible to catch him out.

[Rubyretro]

[QUOTE=Lechmere;163529]Ureka - not stout

I like the pictures Lechmere !

Still -it's like all those dress patterns, and book illustrations of the 1920's; the women at the period of 'art deco' were not all tall and stick thin (see any photo or film).

-pictures are idealised, sanitised versions of a reality

Wishful Thinking !!

[babybird67]

Whatever. Dealing with Hutchinsonites is like talking to someone with multiple personality disorder only all personalities resemble perrymason and Crystal. It really isn't worth my effort to try and educate you.

Bye

LOL Mike. You've done that several times when you've been outargued. Your choice. I don't care. You're the one continuing to post to a thread that you seem convinced isn't worth your time. So who seems personality disordered?

Perhaps when you can rely on logic and argument to compose a post rather than slur and insults you might be worth even talking to anyway. Unfortunately I don't see that time coming any time soon.

[The Good Michael]

Perhaps when you can rely on logic and argument to compose a post rather than slur and insults you might be worth even talking to anyway. Unfortunately I don't see that time coming any time soon.

If I have no worth to you, perhaps it is you who ought to try a little introspection. I haven't insulted anyone here. I mean, I have pointed out the madness, but I consider that a humanitarian effort and not a slur, and that's because I believe anyone who has such conviction about something where there is no evidence, isn't all there. Just my opinion, but I do want to help. Remember to take your meds.

Ciao,

Mike

[babybird67]

If I have no worth to you, perhaps it is you who ought to try a little introspection. I haven't insulted anyone here. I mean, I have pointed out the madness, but I consider that a humanitarian effort and not a slur, and that's because I believe anyone who has such conviction about something where there is no evidence, isn't all there. Just my opinion, but I do want to help. Remember to take your meds.

Ciao,

Mike

Accusing people of personality disorder and drawing parallels about them with banned posters isn't insulting them?

My mistake.

Perhaps your definition of slur comes from the same dictionary as your definition of madness?

[The Good Michael]

Please, someone deliver me from this. Satan? Fisherman? Proto? Bueller?

Mike

[Hatchett]

There will be no deliverence for you from here Michael. It is a hole you have dug yourself into. Perhaps a little humility and introspection could help you. Not to mention a little more respect for people with different views.

Best wishes.

Hatchett.

[Fisherman]

Ben:

"You have, Fisherman, but don’t make any more “ironic” statements about my published theory, please, as they equate to piss taking."

My stance, Ben, is that irony is perfectly legitimate. It often comes in handy when dealing with posters who speak of completely normal things as arse-numbingly ridiculous, screamingly illogical, easily refutable nonsense and such things. Then again, if such derogatory terms were about in a little less proportion, I see no reason why irony could not disappear in a similar manner.

"Who are you quoting here?"

I am not quoting. I am exemplifying. And I suspect you know that?

"If this is an example you’d made up to illustrate a point, it’s not appropriate because it doesn’t correlate with anything Hutchinson said."

Aha - you DID know it! And I´m afraid we do not have to bring Huchinson in here at all, since my example was of a very general nature.

“I don’t know where you for the “door” from, but as far as I can recall off-hand, Lewis never specified a door."

The Times recording from the inquest, 13.11 1888: “Sarah Lewis, a laundress, of 24, Great Pearl-street, Spitalfields, said she went to the house of Mrs. Keyler, in Miller's-court, on Friday morning about 2:30, and saw a man standing at the lodging-house door by himself.”

"The streets of London’s East End in 1888 would not have been “empty” let alone “silent”."

Hutch prfoessed to seeing two (2) persons during his 45 minute vigil. That´s pretty empty to me. There were no cars, no buses, no airplanes, no rrecords playing, no taperecorders etc - no such things disturbed the silence at night. Clearly, it was a much more silence surrounding than the one we have on our streets today.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

I am incredibly humble, thank you very much. I respect all points of view except those of Hitler, Stalin, Manson, Bundy, and Hutchinsonites. I think that's quite fair.

Mike

[The Good Michael]

Toppy Krishna,
Toppy Reggie,
Reggie Krishna,
Toppy, Toppy


The chant is working.