Joran Van der Hutchinson?

[Fisherman]

Ruby, I donīt have any problems realizing that most people would get the dates right in cases like these. What I am warning against, though, is the attitude "He would not have gotten the dates wrong - end of story" you displayed in your earlier post.
We know very little of George Hutchinson. He could have had as story of arriving at the wrong day to job interwiews, family gatherings etc - we just donīt know. In that respect, he is nothing but a person prone to make the occasional mistake, just like you and me.

"If you can convince me ..."

Ruby, there are tasks that you donīt want to spend too much effort on, since you know the outcome in advance

I may perhaps yet sway others in times to come - who knows?

The best,
Fisherman

[richardnunweek]

Hello Rubyretro,
I Wonder how many 25 year old women of striking hair , actually lived in Millers court at the time.?
Fiona grandfather recalled her as pretty, and with very distinctive hair.
Walter Dew described her as standing out amongst others of her kind.
Are we saying that despite all this , and one should add there is a little matter of identifying her clothes correctly, otherwise the police would never had her waste time at the inquest, especially as it went against their own police doctors reports.
And to top it all she swore on oath, despite being warned to think carefully what she was about to say.
The wrong day, her story was verified.
An attention seeker... this womans character was never an issue.
I have never doubted her honesty , and level headedness and she ticks all the right boxes for me.
Regards Richard.

[Rubyretro]

Ruby, there are tasks that you donīt want to spend too much effort on, since you know the outcome in advance

I may perhaps yet sway others in times to come - who knows?

I think this is totally wrong (and after all, I can speak for myself). I always read and consider other people's arguments on their merits, and therefore I agree with you, Claire, and Mike sometimes, and not necessarily with Ben or Gary : each argument on it's merits.

I can't deny that, globally, I still think that Hutch was JtR.

I gave reasons as to why I think that Hutch wouldn't have mixed up the days
-they are logical to me , and not " he wouldn't have gotten the dates wrong...end of story".

[Fisherman]

Iīm sorry if I came across as being rude, Ruby. And Iīm glad that you weigh arguments by their own merits. Thatīs how it should be.

We shall see where that takes us in the future!

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Richard : contemporary sketches (based on descriptions by people that knew her), and written descriptions concur that this young girl was a 'looker' , about 5'7"" with red hair (dyed ? strawberry blonde ?). She was big boned-which was described as 'Stout'.

I am basing the last bit of my ideas on seeing the photos of the body -she has long slender limbs...she may have had a voluptuous body (there was not much left of it) which was described as 'stout' compared to tiny, skinny, East End women...but she visibly wasn't "dumpy".

All I know about the clothes is that Mrs Maxwell said that she hadn't seen them before. I think that she describes a reddish shawl..and a different shade of red to the shawl in the room ( I haven't re-checked this, bit I remember,having done so in the past, that it proved nothing°.

All in all, the description of the Mary supplied by Maxwell did not correspond
to Mary Kelly.

I am as certain as you that Maxwell was sincere with the right date -but described the wrong woman (whom she didn't really even know).

[packers stem]

Hi,
I find it incredible how many members of Casebook , reject two important witnesses, ie Hutchinson /Maxwell, as being most likely mistaken, or in the formers case a liar.
Hutchinson reported to the police on the monday, he would never had gone to the police unless he was absolutely certain he had the right morning, knowing full well that on thursday he walked from Romford.
As for Maxwell , described as a level headed woman ,of good character, she gave her statement on the 9th, just hours after her sighting, her story was verified.
Was she mistaken?, she knew Barnett , she knew they were a couple, kelly was distinctive looking, and she had the weekend to realise any mistake, I would say the murder would have been the talking point of Dorset street.
So if both these witnesses were being honest, what have we.?
Astracan was not her killer, and she met her death around 9am.
Its that simple isnt it?

Hi Richard
I totally agree with you about Maxwell.The reason most people will dismiss her is purely down to what type of killer they think they're looking for.
I go a step further than yourself in that i also believe the medical evidence (including the digestion of the 'fish and potatoes') which suggests,unless that was the victims breakfast ,that she was killed somewhere between 4 and 6.So i'm only left with 1 option.
I do find it slightly annoying that the same people who dismiss Maxwell will quite happily accept far less convincing testimony as ascertained fact.Think Cox,Sarah Lewis,Elizabeth Long,Lawende.None of these cause conflict issues so they've become hard facts.
Incidentally i believe Schwartz is star witness number 2 and no-one likes him either

[harry]

If It wasn't Hutchinson standing outside Crossingham's,what are the chances of it being Tumblety,or Druit,or Ostrog or in fact any of the named suspects.Or do we wipe that man off as having any involvement in Kelly's death,and on what evidence?
For instance if it was Druit,why was he there alone,and how did he end up in Kelly's room?Same would apply to every other suspect.
So think about the situation minus Hutchinson.

[packers stem]

If It wasn't Hutchinson standing outside Crossingham's,what are the chances of it being Tumblety,or Druit,or Ostrog or in fact any of the named suspects.Or do we wipe that man off as having any involvement in Kelly's death,and on what evidence?
For instance if it was Druit,why was he there alone,and how did he end up in Kelly's room?Same would apply to every other suspect.
So think about the situation minus Hutchinson.

Hi Harry
How about a lookout for the real murderer already in the room?
Similar to pipeman in the scwartz account perhaps?

[harry]

The only person ,that by information,might have been in the room was the midnight visitor,and it's hard to imagine that Hutchinson would have been there all that time without being seen before 2.30am.
I personnly am not in favour of a lookout for the ripper.I think the Ripper acted alone,and that pipeman had no relationship with BS.
But it's not impossible.