If GH was JtR where did he bring his "trophies"

[Abby Normal]

I have no direct knowledge of the Victoria Home,but I do know of institutions of that nature and of that time.There were those with dormitry style sleeping,some with private rooms,and some with both.Hutchinson is stated to be a resident,in the old meaning,long term,so it is probable he had his own separate living quarters.

Thanks harry

if he did have his own place in the victoria home i think that may bolster his suspecthood

[Abby Normal]

Couldn’t agree more, Hunter. Equally, we know that Albert Fish remained in a continuous state of hypersexuality during the nine or so days he cooked and ate the flesh of one of his child victims. This same sexual component was also alluded to by Arthur Shawcross as he recounted one of his child murders: “I cut parts of him out and ate them. I took his penis, his balls and heart and ate them. Why I did this I don’t know. I also had sex with his body.” Given the frequency with which this theme occurs within the annals of the sadosexual serialist, it may be safely assumed that the primary motivation behind the Ripper’s abduction of internal organs lay in a desire to enrich his postcrime autoerotic fantasies. Although incomprehensible to many, such behaviour does have less extreme parallels – the man who steals panties from washing lines, for example.


Jack London described his short stay in the Victoria Home in The People of the Abyss, Harry. If you don’t have the book, the relevant chapter is available somewhere on the internet.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

Agree.

Also, the point has been made of what JtR was doing in the (somewhat long)interval between the Eddows murder and the discovery of the GSG. i perhaps think he was returning to his place to drop off the trophys, knife, clean up, perhaps grab a bit of chalk??? before returning to Goulston street.

thoughts on that?

[Abby Normal]

Hi Claire, Rubyretro,

Both of your responses were excellent. As I said, this was just my opinion. Since we really don't know the 'why', evidence and other case studies are all that we sometimes can go by.

Ruby, your point about putting a 'blueprint', so to speak, on any unknown murderer such as this is well taken... and I would add that some of Krafft-Ebings assumptions about this type of person -i.e.- masturbation - are now known to be in error. But some of the men that had previously killed in this fashion were interviewed, and their explanations for their behaviour were quite astounding.

My using Kelly as an example was not so much for the fact that her heart may have been taken away, but what he did with the other organs in situ and how that relates to what was done to Chapman and Eddowes.

I apologize for appearing lofty and will refrain from interfering with this discussion.

Please-Don't leave, keep interfering! There can be no real debate/discussion with only one point of view and besides I agree with you. : )

[John Winsett]

Obviously we're never gonna know what happened to the organs. I've not been posting all that long but it does seem that all these posts turn into the same argument and people just take things too personally. Actually I think he sold the uteri to Tumblety so he could show them to some dinner guests
Actually if it were a sign of dehumanization I could see him cutting out an organ and throwing it in a gutter to show the victim in his mind exactly what she is worth. Just a vile act of disrespect to fuel his fantasy.

[Rubyretro]

Actually if it were a sign of dehumanization I could see him cutting out an organ and throwing it in a gutter to show the victim in his mind exactly what she is worth. Just a vile act of disrespect to fuel his fantasy.

[/QUOTE]

I totally agree, John. He had a reason and a ritual to mutilate -and your example is as good as any.
He might well have gone home and masturbated over the memory afterwards.

[John Winsett]

Agree.

Also, the point has been made of what JtR was doing in the (somewhat long)interval between the Eddows murder and the discovery of the GSG. i perhaps think he was returning to his place to drop off the trophys, knife, clean up, perhaps grab a bit of chalk??? before returning to Goulston street.

thoughts on that?

Well, he went somewhere. Why not home? it was obvious he lived Whitechapel. He could've been anywhere, a tunnel, under some stairs in a tenement, an outdoor privy. It's been put forth before that he went home and then dumped the rag, but the question would be why dump the rag if he could've burned it? I believe now he meant for the rag to be found exactly where it was with the graffito to stir up the excitement and in turn fuel his fantasy. There is no other reason to throw the rag into the streets.

[Rubyretro]

Totally agree, John

[Abby Normal]

Well, he went somewhere. Why not home? it was obvious he lived Whitechapel. He could've been anywhere, a tunnel, under some stairs in a tenement, an outdoor privy. It's been put forth before that he went home and then dumped the rag, but the question would be why dump the rag if he could've burned it? I believe now he meant for the rag to be found exactly where it was with the graffito to stir up the excitement and in turn fuel his fantasy. There is no other reason to throw the rag into the streets.

I think he did go home or private room or place of business first-that was my point. I do not beleive JtR operated out of a lodging house (unless he had a private room there), or a tunnel etc. he needed someplace absolutely private.

I agree he dumped the rag and wrote the GSG on purpose-to directly blame the Jews.

[JosephDurham]

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[JosephDurham]

If JtR was not operating by himself, even though it was one man performing the murders, his "helpers" may have disposed of the remians. Perhaps that is how the kidney made its way out from the rest of the remains. Maybe we should inquire as to whether or not any males died around that date or disappeared, et cetera. If the Masons had a part in this I am certain that unless they had wanted the kidney to make its way out, the individual would have been dealt with.

Joseph

[John Winsett]

If JtR was not operating by himself, even though it was one man performing the murders, his "helpers" may have disposed of the remians. Perhaps that is how the kidney made its way out from the rest of the remains. Maybe we should inquire as to whether or not any males died around that date or disappeared, et cetera. If the Masons had a part in this I am certain that unless they had wanted the kidney to make its way out, the individual would have been dealt with.

Joseph

Hi Joseph,
It's possible he had an accomplice, although the idea is really sick. Personally I believe it was just one guy but then again we really don't know do we? Maybe it was an accomplice after the fact? Maybe he went to someone's hovel and stored stuff there and cleaned up?

[JosephDurham]

The possibility of an accomplice seems very likely in my eyes. If there was not a direct accomplice, working with him, or behind the scenes, someone was certainly covering for him. Think about a man walking the streets, with a knife in his over coat, slaying five women in the heart of the city. How was it that no one ever saw him when the crimes were being committed. When the first attack was performed the streets were lined with officers, and still no one saw him.

Someone was working with him enough either to alert him of when an officer, or pedestrian was approaching, or the officers themselves were assisting in some form or fashion, perhaps by clearing the area for the job to be performed, and make it back to wherever for him to take the "trophies."

Just my opinion.

Joseph

[Versa]

Someone was working with him enough either to alert him of when an officer, or pedestrian was approaching, or the officers themselves were assisting in some form or fashion, perhaps by clearing the area for the job to be performed, and make it back to wherever for him to take the "trophies."

Hi,

I disagree somewhat with this statement... The women that he targeted would of been well aware of the policemen's routines and how long they had in a certain spot before a policeman would be due. I also believe he was a risk taker, the danger of being caught might of added to what ever 'need/desire/urge' he was fulfilling. Imo its a far fetched and unprecedented fantasy to suggest that JtR was anything other than a serial killer.

As to the original post I have also often wondered what he did with the 'trophies' and having read other cases where organs etc were missing it seems most likely to me that he did eat them but whether he did that in the privacy of his own room or in view of other people I wouldn't like to say....

My personal feelings are that at least in the case of Mary Jane Kelly he was most likely naked when he committed the vile act and I have wondered several times if he didnt have access to the goulston street baths (as he appears to have been headed in that direction both after Stride and Eddows).

[Phil H]

Goulston Street baths

Do we know their opening hours? Not much point going there at 2.00am if they did not open 'til later?

[Versa]

Goulston Street baths

Do we know their opening hours? Not much point going there at 2.00am if they did not open 'til later?

Hiya

I think I've read somewhere that the Lady (Sarah?) that ran them was in bed by 12 midnight so they probably closed by 10pm.

However I was wondering how difficult they would be to break into, or if an enterprising person could of got hold of some keys? I was also wondering if the baths had an accessible area that had a water pump that wasn't locked all night and/or toilets that might of been available for JtR to use at that time?