The Red Handkerchief...

[Sam Flynn]

Well, we have a strong indication (by admission) that it was him

Maybe, Jon, but it could equally have been any Joe (or Jack), of whom we know nothing. Dorset Street was home to around 800 people, after all.

Or, if a completely unknown loiterer doesn't float one's boat, one could do a lot worse than reconsider Mr Blotchy. He was stout, wore a wideawake, and was definitely in Miller's Court that night. Indeed, Hutchinson's story apart, Blotchy was the last man with whom Kelly was seen alive.

[Abby Normal]

Maybe, Jon, but it could equally have been any Joe (or Jack), of whom we know nothing. Dorset Street was home to around 800 people, after all.

Or, if a completely unknown loiterer doesn't float one's boat, one could do a lot worse than reconsider Mr Blotchy. He was stout, wore a wideawake, and was definitely in Miller's Court that night. Indeed, Hutchinson's story apart, Blotchy was the last man with whom Kelly was seen alive.

Hi Sam
Now your talking. Whereas I think that in all probability hutch and Lewis watching man were one in the same, blotchy strikes me as the most likely to be Mary's killer and the ripper.

I Beleive hutch was there, I just don't think he ever saw Aman that night.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Sam
Now your talking. Whereas I think that in all probability hutch and Lewis watching man were one in the same, blotchy strikes me as the most likely to be Mary's killer and the ripper.

Hello Abby

Nice to see we agree on some things Yes, Blotchy's a very likely candidate in my view, and his - or rather Wideawake-Man's - vantage point, and fixation on Miller's Court, seems to fit with at least a couple of plausible scenarios. If he'd already killed, perhaps he was taking a last, gloating glance at the scene of his handiwork. If Kelly had not yet died, perhaps he was on the point of returning to #13 for "afters" once he was sure the coast was clear.

[Wickerman]

It was not ONE couple - it was TWO, Jon. You ask me to look away from the context, but context is everything, and I will not do that.

Is this what you meant by "another young man with a woman", yesterday? You think it refers to a second couple?

No Christer. The two sentences read together talked about seeing ONE man loitering, then, A SECOND young man with a woman came along, etc.

When I went in the Court I saw a man opposite the Court in Dorset Street standing alone by the Lodging House. He was not tall - but stout - had on a wideawake black hat – I did not notice his clothes.
Another young man with a woman passed along – The man standing in the street was looking up the Court as if waiting for some one to come out. I went to Mrs Keylers.
GLRO, Original Inquest Record.

Lewis saw two men, not two couples.
One man loitering and, one man with a woman. It's not 'another man & woman', its 'another man'.....with a woman.

[Wickerman]

Yes, Blotchy's a very likely candidate in my view, and his - or rather Wideawake-Man's - vantage point,..

Ah, he just turned in his Billycock hat for a Wideawake, you know, as you do...
His attempt as disguise?

[Fisherman]

Is this what you meant by "another young man with a woman", yesterday? You think it refers to a second couple?

No Christer. The two sentences read together talked about seeing ONE man loitering, then, A SECOND young man with a woman came along, etc.

When I went in the Court I saw a man opposite the Court in Dorset Street standing alone by the Lodging House. He was not tall - but stout - had on a wideawake black hat – I did not notice his clothes.
Another young man with a woman passed along – The man standing in the street was looking up the Court as if waiting for some one to come out. I went to Mrs Keylers.
GLRO, Original Inquest Record.

Lewis saw two men, not two couples.
One man loitering and, one man with a woman. It's not 'another man & woman', its 'another man'.....with a woman.

This is getting stranger by the minute. What I perceive you as saying is that the couple Lewis mentions is the same couple Hutchinson saw.

In other words, it seems to me that you think that Lewis couple was Kelly and Astrakhan man. That was why the woman was hatless and affected by alcohol in both cases - since it was the same couple.

Have I misunderstood you on this?

At any rate, this is why I say that there were TWO different couples - the one that Lewis saw at around 2.30 and the one that Hutchinson saw (Astrakhan and Kelly) at around 2.05.

I know very well that Lewis did not see two couples, Jon

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Ah, he just turned in his Billycock hat for a Wideawake, you know, as you do...
His attempt as disguise?

The thing is, Jon, that billycocks and wideawakes were interchangable to some degree. I can´t tell just what that degree was, but I can post this definition of a billycock:

from the GNU version of the Collaborative International Dictionary of English
A round, low-crowned felt hat; a wideawake.

This discussion was up some years ago, and it seems that the two types of hats were interchangable, at least according to a number of sources.

I would like to call attention to the fact that Sarah Lewis in her original statement claimed that she could not say a single thing about the appearance of the loiterer.
At the inquest, however, reasonably after having taken part of Cox´testimony, she suddenly described a man that tallied quite well with what Cox said.

There is an apparent risk that Lewis - consciously or unconsciously - bought into the picture Cox gave of Blotchy.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

Hi Christer.
Just clarifying the fact we are dealing with one couple. It wouldn't be the first time it has been suggested that there were two couples.

A billycock hat is a low crowned felt hat with a short brim.
A wideawake is a low crowned felt hat with a wide brim.

I made the point because we know that strictly speaking 'wideawake' is a finish not a style, much like a 'silk hat' is a finish, but we know it refers to a top hat.
The difference in this case is that wideawake does not 'mean' Billycock.

[Wickerman]

... and Dew´s statement, hinting at Hutchinson being out on the days.

I have always wondered where this opinion came from:

"The witness who testified previously of having seen the woman enter the house with a man with a blotched face was evidently mistaken as to the night..."
Atchison Daily Globe, 14 Nov.

Whether this was colonial guesswork, or inspired by a rumor prevalent in London is hard to say. I just found it interesting bearing in mind what Dew wrote about Maxwell & Hutchinson 50 years later.

[Fisherman]

Wickerman:

Hi Christer.
Just clarifying the fact we are dealing with one couple. It wouldn't be the first time it has been suggested that there were two couples.

... aaand it won´t be the last. Not if I can help it! But that´s when speaking of BOTH Lewis and Hutchinson. One pair each, different pairs.

A billycock hat is a low crowned felt hat with a short brim.
A wideawake is a low crowned felt hat with a wide brim.

Spot on, as far as I´m concerned. But evidently, the two types were interchangable to the 1888 Eastenders - at least to some degree. There is a very real chance that Lewis thought so, for example, as borne out by the dictionary descriptions - some of them, at least. Perhaps the distinction grew a lot clearer over the years.

I made the point because we know that strictly speaking 'wideawake' is a finish not a style, much like a 'silk hat' is a finish, but we know it refers to a top hat.
The difference in this case is that wideawake does not 'mean' Billycock.

We can´t know that, Jon. We know what WE think, but we don´t know what they thunk, do we?

Best regards,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I have always wondered where this opinion came from:

"The witness who testified previously of having seen the woman enter the house with a man with a blotched face was evidently mistaken as to the night..."
Atchison Daily Globe, 14 Nov.

Whether this was colonial guesswork, or inspired by a rumor prevalent in London is hard to say. I just found it interesting bearing in mind what Dew wrote about Maxwell & Hutchinson 50 years later.

No matter what, it IS interesting that rumours were being bandied about concerning witnesses that got the days wrong!

The best,
Fisherman

[Wickerman]

I would like to call attention to the fact that Sarah Lewis in her original statement claimed that she could not say a single thing about the appearance of the loiterer.
At the inquest, however, reasonably after having taken part of Cox´testimony, she suddenly described a man that tallied quite well with what Cox said.

Yes, you are correct. What I think she was meaning is that she "cannot describe him" in any meaningful way.
You notice that she described the Britannia-man in detail and offered that she could recognise the man again.
Lewis did not make that claim with the loiterer. From this we can take it that Hutchinson (or, The Loiterer) had no worries about being recognised again.

Under questioning at least she was able to provide the style(?) of hat and an overall appearance, but nothing of value as to specific detail.

A billycock hat is a low crowned felt hat with a short brim.
A wideawake is a low crowned felt hat with a wide brim.

Spot on, as far as I´m concerned.

But still, a Deerstalker is not a "hard felt hat"

We can´t know that, Jon. We know what WE think, but we don´t know what they thunk, do we?

Maybe that is also the solution to the Deerstalker conundrum.

No matter what, it IS interesting that rumours were being bandied about concerning witnesses that got the days wrong!

It might legitimize this 'wrong day' claim better than leaving us to think that Dew was just making a wild guess. It is nice to see a contemporary view along the same vein, if not the same witness, even though I don't agree at all.


We wouldn't learn anything if we agreed on everything.

[Fisherman]

We wouldn't learn anything if we agreed on everything.

That is well put and very true!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

The thing is, Jon, that billycocks and wideawakes were interchangable to some degree.

I agree, Fish.

Wideawake: A soft felt hat with broad brim and low crown

Billycock: A round low-crowned felt hat

(Oxford English Dictionary)

[Sam Flynn]

No matter what, it IS interesting that rumours were being bandied about concerning witnesses that got the days wrong!

I don't think so in this context, Fish, as the report in the Atchison Daily Globe continues:

"The witness who testified previously of having seen the woman enter the house with a man with a blotched face was evidently mistaken as to the night [because] his description of her companion is totally unlike that of Hutchinson's in every particular."

In other words, the Atchison Daily Globe's dismissal of the first witness is only because Mr Blotchy didn't fit Hutchinson's description! In fact, the report seems to think that Blotchy was seen by an unnamed man: "his description is... unlike that of Hutchinson's". This journalist was clearly not particularly "wide awake", it appears. Anyone who'd bothered to read Cox's and Hutchinson's testimony would have seen that there was no contradiction at all, only two different men seen at separate times.

PS: I've since noticed that more than one American/Canadian paper carries this story, so it was evidently a Press Agency release, and not the fault of the Atchison Daily Globe as such.