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  • Let´s throw another stick into the fire. It´s something that I´ve been pondering for some while, and I´d like (I hope) to hear what others think about it.

    Here it is:

    We are being told that it is obvious that Hutchinson copied his story from the Daily News of the 10:th.
    I do not agree wholeheartedly with the suggestion, but I concede that there are many similarities inbetween the two stories. As I have stated before, I myself used to think they were perhaps too many to be a coincidence, but on consideration I found that the details involved all were very commonplace matters for a prostiutution encounter, and so I think it is completely plausible that the stories were not one original story and one copycat.

    What has been bugging me somewhat all along is the question why Hutchinson would lend a story that was in the papers and go to the police with it. I believe that the police followed what the papers wrote quite closely, and so Abberline et al would very possibly (and to my mind, quite probably) have been aware of the story served in the Daily Mail.

    Hutchinson could easily have outlined another Jewish character than the rich one with all the gadgets and fancy clothes; he could have created a Fagin, a hairdresser etcetera.
    He could also have said that he saw Kelly making contact in White´s Row, instead of at a corner of Dorset Street. For example.
    He could have masked every detail of that Daily News story so as to make it impossible for the police to be able to make any sort of match.
    Or he could have told another story altogether.

    But he didn´t.

    Why would he risk such a thing? The question nags me.

    Okay, next step: Which of the two stories would we dub a copycat if we had them side by side, and with no previous knowledge about the context?

    I would say that Hutchinson´s story seems the original one, with all the details to it.
    The Daily Mail story seems to be a recollection where the details have gone lost. Astrakhan man is reduced to a "well-clad" man, what corner of Dorset Street it happened on disappears, and - perhaps more interestingly, even - the inferred sex affair is spelt out as an offering of money. The conversation parts are lost, though. The little boy could be just a flight of fancy.

    Confusing?

    Not necessarily.

    Here´s the deal:

    Hutchinson comes to town on Thursday, and sees he encounter between Kelly and Astrakhan man.

    He then walks the streets all night, and slips into the Victoria Home in the morning. Somewhere during Friday, he speaks with somebody about what he has seen, and that kindles the fire.

    Now, in this scenario, the woman who spoke to the Daily News could be the person Hutch spoke to.
    But she could also have been somebody who overheard the conversation between Hutch and somebody else, speaking about what had happened.
    Or she could have been somewhere further down the information line, having the story told to her by somebody else who had heard it - in which case she would not know at what stage the story originated!

    The core point being that maybe Hutchinson himself was the one who originated the story.

    This has been a tight scenario before, since if Hutch was in Dorset Street on Friday morning, then the Daily news would perhaps not have been able to get the story printed the following day.
    But if there was a day inbetween, then the paper would have had the time! And the story could have travelled far.

    The scenario offers an interesting proposition: If Hutch told the story to somebody on Thursday evening, then it could have travelled down many persons during that evening, the following night and the next morning, up til the time Kelly was found. Then, on Friday evening, as all the papers were vacuum-cleaning Dorset Street for information, somebody who had had Hutchinsons story passed down to her, could pounce on the chance to become the talk of the town and put herself in Hutchinson´s role and sell the story to the papers: "I met the murdered woman Kelly on that night, and there was this wealthy looking geezer, who ..."

    I don´t know if I am overlooking something here, but I don´t think so. Otherwise, I´m sure I will have it pointed out to me!

    One of the advantages with this scenario is that it would allow for Abberline et al to have read the story in the Daily Mail and still believe Hutchinson, if he was able to confirm that he had spoken about it all on the town.

    Of course, it says that he told a fellow lodger about it late in the process, and that he told a policeman on Sunday - but that would not preclude that he had spoken of the encounter before, the way I see it. And he would not have had any reason to keep silent about it - it was an eyecatching story, and so an interesting one to relate.

    It would put another twist altogether on the similaritites between the two stories. And it would offer an explanation that has not been looked into before.

    Let me know what you think!

    The best,
    Fisherman
    Last edited by Fisherman; 05-28-2014, 10:28 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by babybird67 View Post
      sometimes it is like Groundhog Day on this site.

      Still, it's good to see Gareth back posting
      It´s always good to have Gareth posting. But for the moment, he has me confused since he favours the wiew that witnesses and policemen alike stole their scenarios from the press...

      The best,
      Fisherman

      PS. It´s George Sand, not George Sands you are quoting. And a lovely quotation it is.
      Last edited by Fisherman; 05-28-2014, 10:13 AM.

      Comment


      • thanks Fish!

        that erroneous 's' has been there for years!
        babybird

        There is only one happiness in life—to love and be loved.

        George Sand

        Comment


        • Originally posted by babybird67 View Post
          that erroneous 's' has been there for years!
          I haven´t seen it before, and I am a great admirer of Geroge Sand and her work, so it kind of lunged at me this time.

          If you like the 's', keep it! It´s definitely more original.

          The best,
          Fisherman

          Comment


          • original but inaccurate!

            no I would not keep it once the error was pointed out Fish, it would feel disrespectful to the great lady herself. So thank you for bringing it to my attention.
            babybird

            There is only one happiness in life—to love and be loved.

            George Sand

            Comment


            • Originally posted by babybird67 View Post
              no I would not keep it once the error was pointed out Fish, it would feel disrespectful to the great lady herself. So thank you for bringing it to my attention.
              My pleasure - good to know that we share the admiration!

              The best,
              Fisherman

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                So you are not only wrong, but also, I would suggest, unnecessarily respectless.
                It's not disrespect, Fish, it's just acknowledging that Dew's book, like other police memoirs of that epoch, contains its fair share of self-promotion, exaggeration, errors and myths (inherited, imagined or invented). Dew's book is, in fairness, absolutely one of the better ones, but it's not immune to the syndrome.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • Originally posted by babybird67 View Post
                  sometimes it is like Groundhog Day on this site.
                  ...well, on this thread, at any rate
                  Still, it's good to see Gareth back posting
                  Nice to see you posting, too, BB.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    I haven´t seen it before, and I am a great admirer of Geroge Sand and her work
                    "Geroge" Sand? Muphry's Law [sic] strikes again

                    Anyway, back to Groundhutch...
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                    Comment


                    • thank you Gareth

                      I have not forgotten your kind help with some Welsh words included in my novel (which I am still working on by the way, determined to finish).

                      And well spotted - poor old Geroge Sands...who would have thought a simple signature could cause so many problems?

                      bb x
                      babybird

                      There is only one happiness in life—to love and be loved.

                      George Sand

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                        It's not disrespect, Fish, it's just acknowledging that Dew's book, like other police memoirs of that epoch, contains its fair share of self-promotion, exaggeration, errors and myths (inherited, imagined or invented). Dew's book is, in fairness, absolutely one of the better ones, but it's not immune to the syndrome.
                        "Like other police memoirs", yes. Not like some work of fiction, though, Gareth. And not speculations - the man was there and worked the case, so let´s give him credit for that.

                        To claim that he is wrong on a number of points where we cannot prove this is - however - sheer speculation.

                        The best,
                        Fisherman
                        Last edited by Fisherman; 05-28-2014, 02:20 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          "Geroge" Sand? Muphry's Law [sic] strikes again

                          Anyway, back to Groundhutch...
                          Yep - that was unavoidable.

                          The best,
                          Fisherman

                          Comment


                          • Still waiting for a reaction to my post 1246 ...

                            ... but any answer on my behalf will have to wait until tomorrow. Nighty-night!

                            Fisherman

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              "Like other police memoirs", yes. Not like some work of fiction, though, Gareth.
                              Bits of it are at least, let's say, "flowered up", like most such biographies at the time.
                              the man was there and worked the case, so let´s give him credit for that.
                              So are we to believe that Anderson really knew something, or that Major Henry Smith was correct when he said that the From Hell letter and kidney were sent to the Central News, and not George Lusk?
                              To claim that he is wrong on a number of points where we cannot prove this is - however - sheer speculation.
                              He was categorically wrong about Tom Bowyer, that's for sure.
                              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                                I believe that the police followed what the papers wrote quite closely, and so Abberline et al would very possibly (and to my mind, quite probably) have been aware of the story served in the Daily Mail [sic]
                                So Hutch comes forward and describes a similar man to one seen by another witness. No problem there, even if the broad outline of the story had been carried by the papers. Made more credible, perhaps, by the fact that Hutch claims he saw the man further down Commercial Street than had the first witness... at least, after his Ten Bells/Queen's Head error was corrected.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                                Comment

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