The Red Handkerchief...

[Wickerman]

Well, if we're exploring the guilty Hutchinson premise, remember that he had the very difficult task of reconciling his own fictional Jack the Ripper description .....

He never claimed he saw Jack the Ripper - this is your conjecture.

In fact he claimed quite the opposite, that the man he saw didn't look like a killer.
Lets not forget, by 6:00 pm on the 12th Kelly's time of death had not been published, all Hutchinson could lay claim to is seeing an earlier client.

[Ben]

He never claimed he saw Jack the Ripper - this is your conjecture.

I know it is, but I've acknowledged as much.

You even quoted the post that made this very clear:

"Well, if we're exploring the guilty Hutchinson premise" - is what I said.

If Hutchinson was himself responsible for the crime, his likely intention was to convince people that Astrakhan man - with his tightly-grasped, knife-shaped, knife-sized parcel - was the killer. Obviously he was compelled to claim otherwise, lest anyone quiz him over his failure to alert a policeman or sound the alarm when he saw him enter Miller's Court with Kelly.

[Wickerman]

If Hutchinson was himself responsible for the crime, his likely intention was to convince people that Astrakhan man - with his tightly-grasped, knife-shaped, knife-sized parcel - was the killer.

Wow, we do have quite the imagination today...

"He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap round it."
Police statement.

"He carried a small parcel in his hand about 8in. long, and it had a strap round it."
Press statement.

Please educate the rest of us as to the shape of the parcel (width and depth, flat or round?), and how anyone can deduce the contents.

[Ben]

Wow, we do have quite the imagination today...

Whereas you seem to have none at all...

Pay attention to what I'm posting or don't respond, please.

I'm not trying to "deduce the contents". I'm quite sure that a non-existent parcel belonging to a non-existent individual contained nothing, but what we're doing here is exploring what Hutchinson might have wanted people to think if he himself was the killer, i.e. that the "surly looking" Astrakhan man was the killer and that his "eight inch long" parcel which he "tightly grasped" contained a knife.

[Wickerman]

Whereas you seem to have none at all...

Pay attention to what I'm posting or don't respond, please.

I'm not trying to "deduce the contents". I'm quite sure that a non-existent parcel belonging to a non-existent individual contained nothing, but what we're doing here is exploring what Hutchinson might have wanted people to think if he himself was the killer, i.e. that the "surly looking" Astrakhan man was the killer and that his "eight inch long" parcel which he "tightly grasped" contained a knife.

Odd really, considering you have tried to push the scenario that Hutchinson 'invented' A-man inspired by earlier press descriptions involving, among other things, the proverbial 'bag'.
Yet here you pursue the idea that he tried to imply an 8" parcel carried a knife, this without describing the shape be it round like a roll, or flat like a book.

What happened to 'the bag'? - surely this would have been more convincing.

What I was pointing out was that Hutchinson can hardly be expected to be trying to implicate A-man in the murder by making reference to a non-descript package.

Anyhow, verbal tennis aside, I see you appear to be enjoying your time in our fine country, is this your first visit?

[Michael W Richards]

THE most plausible explanation for George Hutchinsons statement is between the lines....not 3, but 4 whole days before coming forward, only doing so after all the courtyard witnesses had been at the Inquest and it was over, and the story that was circulating about the witness who saw the wideawake hat man loitering and watching...he came forward only because he learned that he had been seen there by Sarah Lewis.

Whether he made up why he was there is up to you, or whether parts or the entirety of his story were concocted as well. But it seems that the most logical answer to his statement on Monday night was in some respects self preservation.

Cheers

[Ben]

The very simple premise I'm "pushing" here, Jon, is that Hutchinson may have invented Astrakhan man in an effort to deflect suspicion away from himself, and used various bits and bobs from some of the earlier descriptions involving sinister Jews and men with black bags in the process. Your latest objection to this seems to that if he wanted to invent Astrakhan and encourage people to believe he was the killer, he'd have been more blatant about it. I suspect, however, that Hutchinson had good reasons for going for a slightly more subtle sell.

I'd submit that in describing the black bag as being eight inches long and "tightly grasped", he was trying to encourage the inference that it contained a knife. If he went overboard and made it seem even more obviously "knifey", it would have have undermined his claim to have harboured no suspicion that the man was the murderer, which was crucial for explaining away his failure to sound the alarm (as opposed to waiting on the other side of the road, utterly useless as a preventative measure against a fatal attack on Kelly by Astrakhan).

Anyhow, verbal tennis aside, I see you appear to be enjoying your time in our fine country, is this your first visit?

It is, Jon, and I had a wonderful time in your fine country. I got back Thursday morning with many happy memories of places visited and acquaintances met. Despite it being primarily a work trip, I hope I got to see as many of the historical sites as I could. There's a chance I could be back in June, which I'm already very exited about.

All the best,
Ben

[c.d.]

Hello Michael,

I never thought I would ever say this but I agree with you.

c.d.

[Ben]

Seconded, Mike!

Good post.

[Wickerman]

THE most plausible explanation for George Hutchinsons statement is between the lines....not 3, but 4 whole days before coming forward, only doing so after all the courtyard witnesses had been at the Inquest and it was over, and the story that was circulating about the witness who saw the wideawake hat man loitering and watching...he came forward only because he learned that he had been seen there by Sarah Lewis.

Hi Michael.
Between the termination of the Inquest (at what time?), and Hutchinson's appearance at Commercial St. station (at 6:00pm), what indication do you have that anyone on the street knew what Sarah Lewis saw?

Nothing of her claim was published in the press prior to the Inquest, and of the four main evening papers that we have (Evening News, Star, Echo, Pall Mall Gaz.), only the Echo carried the testimony of Sarah Lewis but as we do not know what time this late edition came out then we cannot connect the two incidents.

[Wickerman]

The very simple premise I'm "pushing" here, Jon, is that Hutchinson may have invented Astrakhan man in an effort to deflect suspicion away from himself, and used various bits and bobs from some of the earlier descriptions involving sinister Jews and men with black bags in the process. Your latest objection to this seems to that if he wanted to invent Astrakhan and encourage people to believe he was the killer, he'd have been more blatant about it. I suspect, however, that Hutchinson had good reasons for going for a slightly more subtle sell.

Are you able to explain why a man in such a position as Hutchinson would not simply use the already published description of the Eddowes suspect, assuming he wished to elude the police. To make it believable should be his prime concern, wouldn't you think - assuming he made it up.

It is, Jon, and I had a wonderful time in your fine country. I got back Thursday morning with many happy memories of places visited and acquaintances met. Despite it being primarily a work trip, I hope I got to see as many of the historical sites as I could. There's a chance I could be back in June, which I'm already very exited about.

Ah, you're back home already, sorry. You seem to have spent some time traveling. I hope the weather was kind to you, from accounts you either hit or narrowly missed some extremely bad weather. Historical sites?, are you interested in the war of 1812, or did you mean older?
They hold re-enactments in summer at various places, Fort Erie (Erie), Fort York (Toronto), Fort Henry (Kingston).

[Ben]

He wouldn't have needed to read Lewis' account in the press, Jon.

He need only have registered the fact that Lewis was one of the witnesses due to appear at the inquest, which would have required, at the very most, joining the crowds thronging outside Shoreditch Town Hall. Alternatively, he may have read the "Mrs. Kennedy"'s account in the press and discovered from the Star's report that she was parrotting the evidence of a genuine witness, Sarah Lewis, who probably delivered her genuine her account to the inquest. Either way, rumour travelled like wildfire on those streets, so you can be assured that anything spoken at the public inquest because public knowledge very quickly indeed!

[Ben]

Hi Jon,

Are you able to explain why a man in such a position as Hutchinson would not simply use the already published description of the Eddowes suspect, assuming he wished to elude the police

Because it would have defeated the purpose of deflecting suspicion away from himself. If Hutchinson was the killer, he was the man with the neckerchief seen by Lawende, so it wouldn't have made much sense to deflect suspicion away from himself and onto...himself! Also, remember that the man's extraordinary appearance was Hutchinson's self-confessed reason for taking such an interest in Astrakhan and loitering on Dorset Street for a long as he claimed.

Were Hutchinson to have removed the man's extraordinary appearance from the equation, that reason for the interest/loitering is rendered invalid.

I hope the weather was kind to you

The weather was great on the whole, thanks! We arrived into a snowy Ottawa on Remembrance Sunday, but that quickly gave way to sunshine and blue skies, which continued for our week in Halifax. It was beginning to get colder by the time we got to Montreal, but I gather we narrowly missed the worst of the snow and the minus 12 temperatures!

I'm very big on by maritime history, and visited many of the Titanic passenger connections in the three cities I stayed in. Charles Melville Hays, for instance, built the Ottawa Hotel, had his body brought back from the sea to Halifax, where his gloves are on display at the Maritime Museum, and he lived and was buried in Mount Royal Cemetery, Montreal. So I sort of followed him around!

But I'll definitely check out some of those re-enactments if I ever get back.

All the best,
Ben

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,
Because it would have defeated the purpose of deflecting suspicion away from himself. If Hutchinson was the killer, he was the man with the neckerchief seen by Lawende, .....

So why would 'the Lawende suspect' just walse straight in to Comm. St. station pretending to be someone else?
I think your scenario is a little contradictory - you say he did not describe the Lawende suspect because that was 'him', yet he thought nothing about walking straight into a police station looking like the Lawende suspect, but attempting to implicate someone else?

So did he walk into Comm. Street disguised?, if so then we are back to the original question, why not describe the Lawende suspect because, in his present disguise, he looks nothing like that.
Do you see the contradictory nature of the argument?

The description offered by Sarah Lewis didn't appear to reflect the Lawende suspect, so what did he have to worry about?

I'm very big on by maritime history, and visited many of the Titanic passenger connections in the three cities I stayed in....

Every summer The Tall Ships arrive in Lake Ontario, I don't know what the 2014 schedule is yet, but they came in June this year.

http://www.tallshipsbrockville.com/

http://www.mynewwaterfronthome.com/tallships1812.aspx

http://www.rcyc.ca/Doc-Types/Sailing-News-%281%29/TALL-SHIPS-are-Coming!-Great-Lakes,-June-14-Septem.aspx

[Ben]

I think your scenario is a little contradictory - you say he did not describe the Lawende suspect because that was 'him', yet he thought nothing about walking straight into a police station looking like the Lawende suspect

Lawende's suspect was a ostensibly a working class, ordinarily-dressed man. There were tens of thousands of people dressed like that in the east end at that time, and it was only the red neckerchief that could remotely be construed as a stand-out feature. There was only a danger if the men who saw him in that potentially compromising situation outside Mitre Square recognised him again, which was only likely to happen if Hutchinson was identified on the streets by Lewis, grilled as a suspect (as he inevitably would have been in that scenario) and subsequently paraded before other witnesses, including Lawende.

It was to the end out preventing that potential outcome that I suggest his proactive efforts in contacting the police voluntarily were directed; his intention being to provide an innocent reason for the loitering behaviour of the wideawake man (himself) before that wideawake man becomes a suspect. But he didn't just legitimise his presence as seen by Lewis - he provided a false lead in the form of an opulently dressed Jewish "suspect" whose appearance was the very antithesis of his own "labouring class" dress that had been on display at earlier crimes. It took the heat off the local gentile (as suggested by Lawende's description) and placed in firmly in the direction of the sinister, well-dressed Jew.

Every summer The Tall Ships arrive in Lake Ontario, I don't know what the 2014 schedule is yet, but they came in June this year.

Many thanks for this info, Jon. And that's great news, considering I might be back in June!

All the best,
Ben