The Red Handkerchief...

[Sam Flynn]

Her description of Kelly in the company of Blotchy was not corroborated.

It doesn't sound particularly "wacky", though, does it? Shabby bloke with bad complexion and scruffy moustache, carrying a beer-can. I see little in that description that might occasion doubt.

[Fisherman]

Says who? I don't get you.

Regards

Observer

Just like Gareth kindly informs us, it was Hutchinson himself that claimed that Kelly called him by his surname.
So what I am trying to say is that this should not be enough to serve as a confirmation that he knew Kelly. He could - geez, I dislike saying this! - have made it up. And he could have been mistaken (I felt better saying that!).

If Abberline was happy about getting no more than this from Hutchinson, and if he subsequently built his case around it, putting total faith in Hutchinson, then how would it look if Hutchinson two weeks later spoke to Abberline again and said: "Yeah, I remember it as it was yesterday, how that Asian girl Kelly with her raven dark hair came up to me in Dorset Street and asked me for money..."

That would put Abberline in a very awkward spot, that he would not be in for very long since he would find himself without a job shortly afterwards.

Can you even imagine what it would do to the public sentiments visavi the police? Forgetting to establish that they were speaking of the same woman, Hutchinson and Abberline?

No, we may rest assured that information about what Kelly looked like, how she was clothed, what she said, what impression she gave, whether she seemed intoxicated etcetera was secured during that interrogation. It would be a kindergarten mistake not to do so.

That´s why I asked "Says who?", Observer!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Just like Gareth kindly informs us, it was Hutchinson himself that claimed that Kelly called him by his surname.
So what I am trying to say is that this should not be enough to serve as a confirmation that he knew Kelly.

I think the point is that Hutch says Kelly called him "Hutchinson", as opposed to "George", "mate" or "ducky". The use of the surname seems rather formal for an encounter between friends.

[Observer]

You're forgetting one thing Fish, Hutchinson followed Kelly back to Miller's Court. Proof indeed for Abberline that Hutchinson had spoke to Mary Kelly on the night of her murder. I don't think there would have been any doubt in Abberline's mind that Hutch had encountered Kelly

Regards

Observer

[Fisherman]

I think the point is that Hutch says Kelly called him "Hutchinson", as opposed to "George", "mate" or "ducky". The use of the surname seems rather formal for an encounter between friends.

"Mr Hutchinson" would have sounded formal. But just "Hutchinson" makes it very much less so to my ears, especially combined with the rest of the conversation. I have close friends myself that I invariably call by their surnames.

And anyway, it would not serve as any useful establishing of Kellys identity, no matter what Hutchinson would have claimed he was called.

Do you yourself believe that no questions were asked about the victim? Would the police not be interested in her state of mind, if she seemed nervous, if she was intoxicated, how she was dressed?
I find it rather astonishing that the question is even asked.

The best.
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

You're forgetting one thing Fish, Hutchinson followed Kelly back to Miller's Court. Proof indeed for Abberline that Hutchinson had spoke to Mary Kelly on the night of her murder. I don't think there would have been any doubt in Abberline's mind that Hutch had encountered Kelly

Regards

Observer

I am not forgetting this at all, Observer. I am saying that he could have had confused Mary Kelly for somebody else - you would be baffled to know how often that happens! - and Abberline would not be willing to risk such a thing. It would have been a matter of formality to establish these things, and it would - not least - give material to compare to what other people were saying. We know that different descriptions were provided about her clothing, and that sort of thing would be a primary concern for the police.

It also applies that much as Hutchinson said he saw the couple go to the corner of the court, after which they turned into the court, he actually would not have seen them enter her room from a vantage point up at the corner of Commercial Street.

Hutchinson also said that he went up the court and looked, and that too seems to infer that he knew where she lived - but it would not have the police refraining from finding out all they could about Kelly anyway. It was the crime of the century, and it had a number of predecessors. The press, the public, the politicians, even Queen Victoria took an interest. It would not have been the perfect time not to be thorough - as thorough as possible.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

"Mr Hutchinson" would have sounded formal. But just "Hutchinson" makes it very much less so to my ears, especially combined with the rest of the conversation. I have close friends myself that I invariably call by their surnames.

It sounds rather stilted to British ears, Fish - calling someone by their surname is usually the province of the middle/upper-classes and public (i.e. private) schools.

And anyway, it would not serve as any useful establishing of Kellys identity, no matter what Hutchinson would have claimed he was called.

But it might shed some light on the veracity of his testimony.

[Abby Normal]

You said it. Yes notoriety, monetary gain.

But neither cox nor Lewis went to the press. Where is the evidence that they were seeking money or notoriety? Both were at the in quest. Both had at least part of their testimony corroborated.
Neither changed their story in any significant way, nor were either doubted by police or at the inquest.
Neither tell anything extraordinary about what they saw about their suspects.

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn:

It sounds rather stilted to British ears, Fish - calling someone by their surname is usually the province of the middle/upper-classes and public (i.e. private) schools.

How about the military service, Gareth? Surely it was all surnames there? It was here, I can tell you that.
Also, I think the use of a surname is ofter what comes about when you have more than one friend with the same Christian name.
But what sounds stilted to a British ear is something you will know more about than I do.

But it might shed some light on the veracity of his testimony.

It would definitely have guided Abberline to some extent. But I don´t think it would have affected normal procedure, least of all given the amplitude of the case.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Sam Flynn:

It sounds rather stilted to British ears, Fish - calling someone by their surname is usually the province of the middle/upper-classes and public (i.e. private) schools.

How about the military service, Gareth?

But we're not talking about the military service, anymore than we're talking about middle/upper-classes or public schools. We're talking about a poverty-class East End woman greeting a poverty-class East End friend. No question about it, "Hutchinson, will you lend me sixpence?", is a decidedly stilted piece of dialogue in this context. For whatever reason.

[Abby Normal]

But we're not talking about the military service, anymore than we're talking about middle/upper-classes or public schools. We're talking about a poverty-class East End woman greeting a poverty-class East End friend. No question about it, "Hutchinson, will you lend me sixpence?", is a decidedly stilted piece of dialogue in this context. For whatever reason.

It's also stilted that hutch describes it like that. Why have her use his name and quote her??
You would think most people would describe it like this: she came up to me and asked me to lend her sixpence.

Yet he describes it as quote? Odd. Contrived. Like he thought about it a lot. Like he needed her to use his name (fake name?).

[Sam Flynn]

Like he needed her to use his name (fake name?).

It was his real name, alright.

[Abby Normal]

It was his real name, alright.

I agree it was probably his real name. I was just throwing that part out there.

Put why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????

Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?

[Sam Flynn]

But why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????

Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?

I don't see much that's odd about that, Abby. It's pretty much a working-class thing; my grandparents' generation (indeed, my parents' generation) tend to quote snippets of dialogue, instead of describing a conversation in prose. It can get really convoluted if more than two people are involved!

"Hello, I said. She said hiya, love, this is my sister. I know, I said, we met last Christmas, you remember? Oh, she said, I don't remember that. Don't worry, I said, we all make mistakes. She said no, it couldn't have been last Christmas, she said, 'cos we were stayin' with relations in Merthyr at the time..."

So on, ad infinitum. And that's one person, remember, reporting a conversation she had.

[GUT]

G'day Abby

Put why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????

Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?

In a statement that might be used in Court it is spot on as "Hutchinson can you lend me...." the quote should be the exact words used by the person she wouldn't have said "Could I lend her...?" she'd have said "Hutchinson can you lend me...." or "Can you lend me ...?"

In Court speak it is called direct speech.