Originally posted by Observer
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Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Observer View PostSays who? I don't get you.
Regards
Observer
So what I am trying to say is that this should not be enough to serve as a confirmation that he knew Kelly. He could - geez, I dislike saying this! - have made it up. And he could have been mistaken (I felt better saying that!).
If Abberline was happy about getting no more than this from Hutchinson, and if he subsequently built his case around it, putting total faith in Hutchinson, then how would it look if Hutchinson two weeks later spoke to Abberline again and said: "Yeah, I remember it as it was yesterday, how that Asian girl Kelly with her raven dark hair came up to me in Dorset Street and asked me for money..."
That would put Abberline in a very awkward spot, that he would not be in for very long since he would find himself without a job shortly afterwards.
Can you even imagine what it would do to the public sentiments visavi the police? Forgetting to establish that they were speaking of the same woman, Hutchinson and Abberline?
No, we may rest assured that information about what Kelly looked like, how she was clothed, what she said, what impression she gave, whether she seemed intoxicated etcetera was secured during that interrogation. It would be a kindergarten mistake not to do so.
That´s why I asked "Says who?", Observer!
All the best,
Fisherman
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Originally posted by Fisherman View PostJust like Gareth kindly informs us, it was Hutchinson himself that claimed that Kelly called him by his surname.
So what I am trying to say is that this should not be enough to serve as a confirmation that he knew Kelly.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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You're forgetting one thing Fish, Hutchinson followed Kelly back to Miller's Court. Proof indeed for Abberline that Hutchinson had spoke to Mary Kelly on the night of her murder. I don't think there would have been any doubt in Abberline's mind that Hutch had encountered Kelly
Regards
Observer
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostI think the point is that Hutch says Kelly called him "Hutchinson", as opposed to "George", "mate" or "ducky". The use of the surname seems rather formal for an encounter between friends.
And anyway, it would not serve as any useful establishing of Kellys identity, no matter what Hutchinson would have claimed he was called.
Do you yourself believe that no questions were asked about the victim? Would the police not be interested in her state of mind, if she seemed nervous, if she was intoxicated, how she was dressed?
I find it rather astonishing that the question is even asked.
The best.
FishermanLast edited by Fisherman; 05-20-2014, 12:03 PM.
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Originally posted by Observer View PostYou're forgetting one thing Fish, Hutchinson followed Kelly back to Miller's Court. Proof indeed for Abberline that Hutchinson had spoke to Mary Kelly on the night of her murder. I don't think there would have been any doubt in Abberline's mind that Hutch had encountered Kelly
Regards
Observer
It also applies that much as Hutchinson said he saw the couple go to the corner of the court, after which they turned into the court, he actually would not have seen them enter her room from a vantage point up at the corner of Commercial Street.
Hutchinson also said that he went up the court and looked, and that too seems to infer that he knew where she lived - but it would not have the police refraining from finding out all they could about Kelly anyway. It was the crime of the century, and it had a number of predecessors. The press, the public, the politicians, even Queen Victoria took an interest. It would not have been the perfect time not to be thorough - as thorough as possible.
All the best,
Fisherman
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Originally posted by Fisherman View Post"Mr Hutchinson" would have sounded formal. But just "Hutchinson" makes it very much less so to my ears, especially combined with the rest of the conversation. I have close friends myself that I invariably call by their surnames.And anyway, it would not serve as any useful establishing of Kellys identity, no matter what Hutchinson would have claimed he was called.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Observer View PostYou said it. Yes notoriety, monetary gain.
Neither changed their story in any significant way, nor were either doubted by police or at the inquest.
Neither tell anything extraordinary about what they saw about their suspects."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Sam Flynn:
It sounds rather stilted to British ears, Fish - calling someone by their surname is usually the province of the middle/upper-classes and public (i.e. private) schools.
How about the military service, Gareth? Surely it was all surnames there? It was here, I can tell you that.
Also, I think the use of a surname is ofter what comes about when you have more than one friend with the same Christian name.
But what sounds stilted to a British ear is something you will know more about than I do.
But it might shed some light on the veracity of his testimony.
It would definitely have guided Abberline to some extent. But I don´t think it would have affected normal procedure, least of all given the amplitude of the case.
The best,
Fisherman
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Originally posted by Fisherman View PostSam Flynn:
It sounds rather stilted to British ears, Fish - calling someone by their surname is usually the province of the middle/upper-classes and public (i.e. private) schools.
How about the military service, Gareth?Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostBut we're not talking about the military service, anymore than we're talking about middle/upper-classes or public schools. We're talking about a poverty-class East End woman greeting a poverty-class East End friend. No question about it, "Hutchinson, will you lend me sixpence?", is a decidedly stilted piece of dialogue in this context. For whatever reason.
You would think most people would describe it like this: she came up to me and asked me to lend her sixpence.
Yet he describes it as quote? Odd. Contrived. Like he thought about it a lot. Like he needed her to use his name (fake name?)."Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Sam Flynn View PostIt was his real name, alright.
Put why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????
Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?"Is all that we see or seem
but a dream within a dream?"
-Edgar Allan Poe
"...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."
-Frederick G. Abberline
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Originally posted by Abby Normal View PostBut why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????
Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?
"Hello, I said. She said hiya, love, this is my sister. I know, I said, we met last Christmas, you remember? Oh, she said, I don't remember that. Don't worry, I said, we all make mistakes. She said no, it couldn't have been last Christmas, she said, 'cos we were stayin' with relations in Merthyr at the time..."
So on, ad infinitum. And that's one person, remember, reporting a conversation she had.Kind regards, Sam Flynn
"Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)
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G'day Abby
Put why have her asking him as a quote and using his name? Do you see what I am getting at? not just that she used his last name (which i do also find stilted)but that he describes it as her using a quote ...she says to me "Hutchinson can you lend me...."????
Wouldn't the normal way to describe it be -she came up to me and asked me to lend her..... ?
In Court speak it is called direct speech.G U T
There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.
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