The Red Handkerchief...

[Sam Flynn]

Afterall, none of the witnesses suggested a well-dressed man in this part of town was "an unusual sight".

Didn't Hutchinson himself declare his surprise?!!

[Wickerman]

Didn't Hutchinson himself declare his surprise?!!

No, he didn't.

[Fisherman]

Just as Jon points out, Abberline mentions that Hutchinson was surprised to see a man so well-dressed - in Kelly´s company.
In the Daily News interwiew, the wording does not include that company, Hutchinson instead says that "his suspicions were aroused" by seeing such a well dressed man, but those suspicions did not entail the man possibly being a killer. Or even dangerous.

I am the Swede around here, so I do not have full access to the finer points of the British language, but it seems to me that Hutchinsons statement that his "suspicions were aroused" by seing such a well-dressed man could perhaps be another fashion of saying that he was surprised to see such a well dressed man?

Anyhow, the point I´d like to make is that the man Hutchinson described was a very fancy dressed man indeed, kid gloves, astrakhan, jewellery and all. This tells me that many men that were a lot less fancy would still be perfectly viable to be described as well dressed, respectable etcetera.

Putting it differently, I would not think it strange if Eastenders in general would have thought Astrakhan man somewhat out of the ordinary, whereas that would not necessarily mean that they would be surprised by ANY well-dressed man on their streets.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

No, he didn't.

Yes he did.

“My suspicions were aroused by seeing the man so well dressed”

Morning Post 14th Nivember [and widespread across the press]

Yet even before he spoke to the press:

The highly respectable appearance of this individual was in such great contrast to that of the woman that few people could have failed to remark them at that hour of the evening.

Daily News 13th November [repeated across the press]

Everybody knew that such a well-dressed man on Dorset Street was remarkable.

[Sally]

You may have missed the odd clarifying post or two on the topic, Sally. I said that she would be more expensive than Chapman. I never said she could hold on to that money. I also went to great lengths top explain how and why. As did Jon.

The best,
Fisherman

Right - so what's your point then? Kelly was one step away from living in a dosshouse. She was living on her uppers, as they say. You think that in those dismal circumstances she'd have attracted a string of well-dressed customers? Why would any man who could afford to be well-dressed bother to seek the company of a down and out prostitute on Dorset Street when there were much better pickings to be had elsewhere? Everybody knew it was odd - it was suspicious: that's the whole point.

You, and Jon, are missing the point. The story told by Hutchinson is derivative. The entire sequence of events, which is specific and which appears from the earliest versions, is repeated by Hutchinson a couple of days later. The story is essentially the same.

Unless you wish to suggest that a number of well-dressed men were frequenting Dorset Street on the night of Kelly's death and just happened to accost her and offer her money, which just happened to be witnessed and reported by an associate of hers, who then just happened to watch them go back to Millers Court; the conclusion is obvious.

Personally, I think that we pay far more attention to Hutchinson and his tall tale today than anybody did at the time. In spite of his five minutes of fame, he was just one of a large number of men who came forward with stories of 'suspicious' men. He was in the limelight for a few days and then forgotten as yet another timewaster.

Possibly we might consider doing the same.

[Fisherman]

Sally, the quotation:

"The highly respectable appearance of this individual was in such great contrast to that of the woman that few people could have failed to remark them at that hour of the evening."

Does actually not say that respecatbly appearing men were unusual in Dorset Street. It only says that there was a great contrast between the poor woman and the wealthy man. The contrast inbetween the two was the remarkable matter.
Respectably appearing men could have paraded down the street every fifth minute, and as long as they didn´t take up with women like the one mentioned, there would be nothing strange with it.

Move the scene to Harley Street. There would have been tons of respectably dressed men around. Then put a ragged, low-life prostitute on the smae street. Will the respectably dressed men seem out of context? No. But if one of them takes up with the prostitute, the COMBINATION will be an odd one.

That´s all the sentence is saying. After that, it stands to reason that very wealthy looking persons may not have been the order of the day in Dorset Street, but that is another matter, untouched upon by the quotation you chose.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Sally:

Right - so what's your point then? Kelly was one step away from living in a dosshouse. She was living on her uppers, as they say. You think that in those dismal circumstances she'd have attracted a string of well-dressed customers? Why would any man who could afford to be well-dressed bother to seek the company of a down and out prostitute on Dorset Street when there were much better pickings to be had elsewhere? Everybody knew it was odd - it was suspicious: that's the whole point.

Here´s a snippet you may need to read. It´s about the late nineteenth century widespread hobby of slumming:

"In fact, for a considerable number of Victorian gentlemen and ladies slumming was a form of illicit urban tourism. They visited the most deprived streets of the East End in pursuit of the 'guilty pleasures' associated with the immoral slum dwellers. Upper-class slummers sometimes spent in disguise a night or more in poor boarding houses seeking to experience taboo intimacies with the members of the lower classes. Their cross-class sexual fellowships contributed to diminishing class barriers and reshaping gender relations at the turn of the nineteenth century."

Apparently, the world is a complex place, Sally.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

"Upper-class slummers sometimes spent in disguise a night or more in poor boarding houses"

The key phrase is "in disguise" - i.e. dressed in poor clothes so as not to attract attention. It's a common, and damaging, misconception that "slummers" flounced around the London rookeries in their Sunday best. I recommend Seth Koven's book Slumming, to those who want to understand the phenomenon a little better.

[Wickerman]

Sally, the quotation:

"The highly respectable appearance of this individual was in such great contrast to that of the woman that few people could have failed to remark them at that hour of the evening."

Does actually not say that respecatbly appearing men were unusual in Dorset Street. It only says that there was a great contrast between the poor woman and the wealthy man. The contrast inbetween the two was the remarkable matter.
Respectably appearing men could have paraded down the street every fifth minute, and as long as they didn´t take up with women like the one mentioned, there would be nothing strange with it.

Move the scene to Harley Street. There would have been tons of respectably dressed men around. Then put a ragged, low-life prostitute on the smae street. Will the respectably dressed men seem out of context? No. But if one of them takes up with the prostitute, the COMBINATION will be an odd one.

That´s all the sentence is saying. After that, it stands to reason that very wealthy looking persons may not have been the order of the day in Dorset Street, but that is another matter, untouched upon by the quotation you chose.

The best,
Fisherman

Thankyou Christer, I hope Sally understands now.

[Wickerman]

The key phrase is "in disguise" - i.e. dressed in poor clothes so as not to attract attention. It's a common, and damaging, misconception that "slummers" flounced around the London rookeries in their Sunday best. I recommend Seth Koven's book Slumming, to those who want to understand the phenomenon a little better.

There were a variety of different circumstances covered under the rubric of 'slumming'.

One was the 'swell' who dressed down to live in a lodging-house among the dossers, and partake of the rough & cheap nightlife.

Another was the 'swell' who only ventured down the slums for the evening, in his normal attire, to also partake in the sordid nightlife, though apparently chose not to sleep there.

[Fisherman]

The key phrase is "in disguise" - i.e. dressed in poor clothes so as not to attract attention. It's a common, and damaging, misconception that "slummers" flounced around the London rookeries in their Sunday best. I recommend Seth Koven's book Slumming, to those who want to understand the phenomenon a little better.

Come on, Gareth, read again! They sometimes disguised themselves if they intended to sleep in a doss-house.

Whether that applies to those who never intended to sleep in dosshouses, is something the text does not touch upon. But we do have drawings of well-clad men slumming in the East End!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

There were a variety of different circumstances covered under the rubric of 'slumming'.

One was the 'swell' who dressed down to live in a lodging-house among the dossers, and partake of the rough & cheap nightlife.

Another was the 'swell' who only ventured down the slums for the evening, in his normal attire, to also partake in the sordid nightlife, though apparently chose not to sleep there.

You beat me to it, Jon! Yes, that´s the overall idea. Thanks!

The best,
Fisherman

[Sally]

Sally, the quotation:

"The highly respectable appearance of this individual was in such great contrast to that of the woman that few people could have failed to remark them at that hour of the evening."

Does actually not say that respecatbly appearing men were unusual in Dorset Street. It only says that there was a great contrast between the poor woman and the wealthy man. The contrast inbetween the two was the remarkable matter.
Respectably appearing men could have paraded down the street every fifth minute, and as long as they didn´t take up with women like the one mentioned, there would be nothing strange with it.

Move the scene to Harley Street. There would have been tons of respectably dressed men around. Then put a ragged, low-life prostitute on the smae street. Will the respectably dressed men seem out of context? No. But if one of them takes up with the prostitute, the COMBINATION will be an odd one.

That´s all the sentence is saying. After that, it stands to reason that very wealthy looking persons may not have been the order of the day in Dorset Street, but that is another matter, untouched upon by the quotation you chose.

The best,
Fisherman

Oh dear. That's a bit desperate, Fish.

Still, as you like - you may theorise around the edges of this as much and as often as you please: the fact remains that Hutchinson's story is demonstrably derivative. The documentary evidence is all there.

So Hutchinson embellished a story that was already circulating in the press - so what? That can mean as much or as little as you like: there's plenty of space for speculation.

It's all the same to me, whatever. The bottom line is that the record supports the contention that Hutchinson derived his story from what he read in the press, and that's it.

[Fisherman]

Oh dear. That's a bit desperate, Fish.

Still, as you like - you may theorise around the edges of this as much and as often as you please: the fact remains that Hutchinson's story is demonstrably derivative. The documentary evidence is all there.

So Hutchinson embellished a story that was already circulating in the press - so what? That can mean as much or as little as you like: there's plenty of space for speculation.

It's all the same to me, whatever. The bottom line is that the record supports the contention that Hutchinson derived his story from what he read in the press, and that's it.

"Demonstrably derivative"?

And I´m the desperate one?

Aha.

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Thankyou Christer, I hope Sally understands now.

Nope.

Fisherman