The Red Handkerchief...

[pinkmoon]

Oh joy. Another conspiracy theory.

We've been due one.......what's that noise can i hear a royal coach approaching.

[GUT]

G'Day Bridewell

Oh joy. Another conspiracy theory.

Who'd a thunk it?

[Stephen Thomas]

Absolutely, Jon. A witness gives a detailed description and Abberline, who saw him face to face and interrogated him, formed the opinion that he was telling the truth. Self-appointed modern-day experts have decided that the street lighting was so poor that such a description could not be believed. This in the face of the inconvenient fact that an experienced detective, who knew the area and its lighting better than we can ever do, and who interrogated the witness, did believe it.

Oi. Stop talking sense. Who needs that?

[GUT]

G'Day Bridewell

A witness gives a detailed description and Abberline, who saw him face to face and interrogated him, formed the opinion that he was telling the truth. Self-appointed modern-day experts have decided that the street lighting was so poor that such a description could not be believed. This in the face of the inconvenient fact that an experienced detective, who knew the area and its lighting better than we can ever do, and who interrogated the witness, did believe it.

Next you'll want people to believe that the police were [shock horror] competent!! And would know BS from the truth. Don't you know that in 1888 the police were Keystone Cops?

[pinkmoon]

G'Day Bridewell



Next you'll want people to believe that the police were [shock horror] competent!! And would know BS from the truth. Don't you know that in 1888 the police were Keystone Cops?

Hi gut,a bit harsh on the police there old chap.I think the problem that the police had was that the crimes were been committed in an area where potential witnesses would be reluctant to come forward also the police seemed to be looking for a sinister looking lunatic maybe even one who was foaming at the mouth and as know now serial killers can be quite normal looking sometimes even charming people .

[Sam Flynn]

Hi gut,a bit harsh on the police there old chap.

I think (hope?) GUT was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, there. That's how I read it, anyway!

[GUT]

G'Day Pinkmoon and Sam

Sarcasm doesn't always come across on these boards. And I've made the same mistake before.

Personally I believe that we take the view of the police at our own peril.

I've posted elsewhere that I think 1880's police where no better or worse than today's but bought Victorian views.

Now as to the resources available to them a different question.

[Abby Normal]

Absolutely, Jon. A witness gives a detailed description and Abberline, who saw him face to face and interrogated him, formed the opinion that he was telling the truth. Self-appointed modern-day experts have decided that the street lighting was so poor that such a description could not be believed. This in the face of the inconvenient fact that an experienced detective, who knew the area and its lighting better than we can ever do, and who interrogated the witness, did believe it.

sorry, wrong BW and wicky-faulty reasoning.
it has nothing to do with whether the police made a mistake that make hutch a suspect, or at least suspicious. Its what we know about him.

Anyone who behaves in stalking behavior toward a victim, admits and is corroborated that he is there at approx. TOD, gives a descrption that on its face is highly dubious (no other witnes in the entire case comes close to decribing a situation with any of the detail and events like hutch), and has no ALIBI should be considered a supect or person of interest.

abberline may have beleived him initially, perhaps came to doubt, even suspect, but if there is nothing else to go on-what can he do? you cant charge him any way.

There are a zillion other scenarios that have nothing to do with the police having to have made a mistake.( Or maybe they did, but so what-theyre human!) The history of serial killer investigations are littered with this stuff: killer being right under their nose, something is overlooked, something new comes up, their is suspicion but not enough to charge etc.,-- its the nature of the beast!

Bottom line-what we DO know about hutch and his situation- its suspicious. The stalking behaviour alone should make him suspicios, let alone the other red flags.

[Bridewell]

Wicky-Faulty?

Bottom line-what we DO know about hutch and his situation- its suspicious.

Did I say Hutchinson wasn't suspicious?

What I did say was that his description of Astrakhan Man could not be dismissed on the basis that it was unbelievable when Abberline believed him to be telling the truth. If an experienced detective who knew the lighting conditions (which he did) was prepared to believe his account, his account cannot be described as unbelievable. Nothing 'wicky-faulty' about that reasoning.

[GUT]

G'Day Pinkmoon

I think the problem that the police had was that the crimes were been committed in an area where potential witnesses would be reluctant to come forward

Totally completely and utterly agree.

[GUT]

Pinkmoon

the police seemed to be looking for a sinister looking lunatic maybe even one who was foaming at the mouth and as know now serial killers can be quite normal looking sometimes even charming people .

Again agree.

But police do similar things today, decide on a suspect, or type of suspect, before they even investigate. Not all the time, but it does happen.

These poor beggars were dealing with something, that to them, was totally new.

[Abby Normal]

Did I say Hutchinson wasn't suspicious?

What I did say was that his description of Astrakhan Man could not be dismissed on the basis that it was unbelievable when Abberline believed him to be telling the truth. If an experienced detective who knew the lighting conditions (which he did) was prepared to believe his account, his account cannot be described as unbelievable. Nothing 'wicky-faulty' about that reasoning.

Sorry
I was responding to both you and Wickerman (Wicky).
I should have just responded to wickys previous post, because when I re read your post, it is absolutely correct. Even if abberline changed his opinion on hutches veracity, his initial impression was that he was beleiveable, therefor his description of Aman was beleiveable as you say, at least initially. My personal opinion is that it is hard, very hard to Beleive.

My point to Wicky was that it's faulty reasoning to say hutches validity as a suspect is based on the police making a mistake-which was his point. My point is that all things considered, what we do know about hutch now, and even if you leave out the beleiveability of his desription of Aman, is that he is suspicious, or at least should be, no? Stalking behavior of the victim, places himself in proximity at TOD, no alibi etc?

You can see that, right?

[Garry Wroe]

A witness gives a detailed description and Abberline, who saw him face to face and interrogated him, formed the opinion that he was telling the truth.

According to Hutchinson's version of events, Colin, Kelly and Astrakhan passed Hutchinson whilst illuminated by a gaslamp. Thus there was every reason for Abberline to have believed that Hutchinson got a good look at Kelly's companion.

Self-appointed modern-day experts have decided that the street lighting was so poor that such a description could not be believed.

Not the description, Colin. The issue lies with the finer detail Hutchinson claimed to have discerned at distance under poor lighting conditions.

[Lechmere]

Could Hutchinson have been a pimp, or was he waiting to rob Kelly’s customer, or was he a peeping tom, or was he a serial killer who inserted himself in the investigation and was stalking his victim?
Was he investigated by the police (besides being interrogated, which we know about).
Or was he a casual labourer who got back too late to gain admittance to his lodging house and who was kicking his heals on the streets until the morning came?

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
My view always is.. he was a casual , who got back too late ,and was hanging around until morning,although I feel pretty certain, the reason he was hanging around, was to see if he maybe could spend the night in the room. he may well even have done so, and when he knew that Kelly was allegedly killed whilst he was there..he was mortified, and substituted himself with Mr A,.a person who he may well have seen en route to Whitechapel..
Regards Richard.