Hutchinson and antisemitism ?? A possibility?

[Adam Went]

I'll just respond to Hunter's post because it pretty much both covers yours and Michael's.....

The Jews had been implicated in the previous murders. In fact, it was such a hot potato that Warren had the graffiti erased for that very reason.

So what? Anti-semitism was already rife in the East End long before JTR ever started his killings, it was natural that with no better suspect, the locals would start pointing the finger at the Jews. Warren waited 3 hours between the discovery of the graffiti and the order to have it erased, clearly he wasn't too concerned about how many members of the public might become aware of it. A piece of graffiti was hardly going to outrank a double murder in terms of increasing suspicion towards the Jews, was it?

Anyway, the message says that the Jews aren't responsible for whatever it was they were supposed to be responsible was....not that they were.

As for the letters......Michael, you would believe the Goulston Street Graffito was from the killer before you would believe From Hell was? I've got nothing to say to that.....your statement speaks for itself really.

John Douglas, the FBI profiler stated that people's handwriting can be different when writing "chalkboard style" as opposed to the more constrained posture of letter writing. He even figured that the graffito would not give a clue to any of the letter writers because of this- from "The Cases That Haunt Us". The inferred dialect of the two writings are quite similar. Of course there's always the possibility that one isn't connected to the other. We just don't know enough to reach a definite conclusion.

That may be true, but what doesn't change is the spelling and grammar, whether you're writing on a wall or on a piece of paper. There also reaches a point where the acceptable changes simply become irreconcilable. Take a look at how many spelling and grammatical errors there are in the From Hell letter. Then compare it to the GSG which, aside from some errors like capitals where there shouldn't be, and the confusion over the word "Juwes", is spelt entirely correctly. Did Jack miraculously lose his ability to spell in the 2 weeks following the double murder?

Show me the proof that he couldn't read or write. I, for one, do not take the graffiti as "gospel from the killer" but because we really don't know, I wouldn't be so presumptuous to dismiss it outright either.

The odds are stacked firmly in favour of him not being proficient at reading or writing, given the general standard of citizens in 1888. Especially if he was foreign to the country and English wasn't his first language, as many believe. It's down to percentages. And the chances of him being not just able to spell a sentence correctly but also in "good schoolboy hand", is in a minority.

Anyway, the burden of proof is always on the accuser....you are both saying that JTR likely wrote the GSG....and so the onus is on you, not me.

Michael....one final point. As I said before, spray paint didn't exist in 1888. It was also before the days of permanent markers and other such things. Chalk was a common writing instrument in 1888. Now, you go and write a sentence on any wall, anywhere, and within a few days it will be gone, or so worn as to be almost unintelligible. If it rains (as it often did in London), it gets washed off. If it doesn't get washed off, it gets covered over by the constant layer of dirt and grime the working class provide for the walls. So I've got no doubt graffiti was rife in London in 1888, but that the majority of it would have disappeared almost as quickly as it was written. Really, the only thing the GSG has going in its favour is that it must have been reasonably fresh.

Cheers,
Adam.

[harry]

Ruby,
Would not a person seen going into Kelly's room,and not seen emerging from that room,be thought a better suspect than a person only seen on the street?Not that it matters,if,as I think both may have been the same person,but I was speculating on what might have been the case if Hutchinson had not come forward.Far better to come forward with a story that appears to clear both sightings.Kelly's whereabouts in the hours before midnight,have never been explained.An intense investigation might have proved fruitfull,but,and the police may have been of the same opinion,why waste resources if she was alive and well,and in another persons company at 2AM? A person that is so unlike both.

[The Good Michael]

It's okay Hunter. I agree with all your points, though I stay away from Douglas and profiling. Maybe I agree because I have a fondness for Finger, Tennessee.

Mike

[Hunter]

Hi Michael, I just noticed our post crossed. Double barreled this time I guess. LOL

[Hunter]

First of all, tell me what part of the graffiti actually suggests anything related to any murder, JTR or otherwise, or any criminal activity at all, JTR or otherwise?

The Jews had been implicated in the previous murders. In fact, it was such a hot potato that Warren had the graffiti erased for that very reason.

Tell me why in all of the other potential JTR communications (I'm talking Dear Boss, Saucy Jacky and From Hell) the writer is so forward about who he is and what he intends to do, when the writer of the GSG is so cryptic?

The Zodiac killer sent both cryptic and more intentional messages. Go figure the mind of a serial killer.

Also, tell me why the GSG was written in "good schoolboy hand" when the From Hell letter in particular was quite messy and grammatically poor?

John Douglas, the FBI profiler stated that people's handwriting can be different when writing "chalkboard style" as opposed to the more constrained posture of letter writing. He even figured that the graffito would not give a clue to any of the letter writers because of this- from "The Cases That Haunt Us". The inferred dialect of the two writings are quite similar. Of course there's always the possibility that one isn't connected to the other. We just don't know enough to reach a definite conclusion.

Also, show me the proof that Jack the Ripper could even read or write in the first place. The education system in 1888 was nothing like what it is now, half the East End or more couldn't read or write, or at least they were very poor at it. And yet this "good schoolboy hand" graffiti turns up near the apron and it's taken as gospel from the killer?

Show me the proof that he couldn't read or write. I, for one, do not take the graffiti as "gospel from the killer" but because we really don't know, I wouldn't be so presumptuous to dismiss it outright either.

[The Good Michael]

First of all, tell me what part of the graffiti actually suggests anything related to any murder, JTR or otherwise, or any criminal activity at all, JTR or otherwise?

I don't believe it tells us anything about that. I think JTR made a personal connection to preexisting graffiti.

Tell me why in all of the other potential JTR communications (I'm talking Dear Boss, Saucy Jacky and From Hell) the writer is so forward about who he is and what he intends to do, when the writer of the GSG is so cryptic?

Duh... because they are unrelated?

Also, tell me why the GSG was written in "good schoolboy hand" when the From Hell letter in particular was quite messy and grammatically poor?

Another 'Duh'.

Also, show me the proof that Jack the Ripper could even read or write in the first place. The education system in 1888 was nothing like what it is now, half the East End or more couldn't read or write, or atleast they were very poor at it. And yet this "good schoolboy hand" graffiti turns up near the apron and it's taken as gospel from the killer?

The point of your argument was the absolute thickness of graffiti. This you've sidestepped, and this you have no proof for. While we're at it, show me proof that JTR couldn't read and write.

Mike

[Adam Went]

Michael:

In Seoul the walls are not thick with graffiti, neither in Tokyo, Beijing, Chicago, Frankfurt, Vienna, Addis, Fukuoka, Taipei. Minneapolis... no.

Some graffiti, sure. Thick? No. Too much coincidence with the apron. Way too much.

Are you serious?
First of all, tell me what part of the graffiti actually suggests anything related to any murder, JTR or otherwise, or any criminal activity at all, JTR or otherwise?

Tell me why in all of the other potential JTR communications (I'm talking Dear Boss, Saucy Jacky and From Hell) the writer is so forward about who he is and what he intends to do, when the writer of the GSG is so cryptic?

Also, tell me why the GSG was written in "good schoolboy hand" when the From Hell letter in particular was quite messy and grammatically poor?

Also, show me the proof that Jack the Ripper could even read or write in the first place. The education system in 1888 was nothing like what it is now, half the East End or more couldn't read or write, or atleast they were very poor at it. And yet this "good schoolboy hand" graffiti turns up near the apron and it's taken as gospel from the killer?

No way.

Cheers.
Adam.

[Observer]

You initially were of the opinion that Hutchinson may well have done it? We're in the same camp then, what are you moaning about? Lets forget about Hutch for a while though. Believe me my continuing posting to this thread has nothing to do with the winning of the argument, rather it is to question your logic.

An example. Over in the "Did Jack kill Liz Stride" you posted regarding Jack the Ripper

It seems a big risk to kill in an area where he knew lots of people were nearby...but we don't know the way his mind worked.

Next you're posting regarding George Hutchinson

If he did it.....then he'd be thinking: "go to the police and if someone saw me going into the room then I'm well and truly goosed".

If he didn't do it....then he'd be thinking: "go to the police and there ain't a problem because I didn't go in the room - I didn't kill her - so there's no way I can get fingered for this".

The evidence doesn't point to H....nor does logic.

Do you see where I'm coming from Macca? Can you see the contradiction here. We can't predict the way JTR's mind worked, but we can predict the way George Hutchinson's mind worked. Listen if you have a problem with my posts then lets agree to leave each others post alone, agreed?

Observer

[Fleetwood Mac]

Observer



Exactly. My train of thought is totaly alien to you, you could not have predicted it, my logic baffles you, you see we are all different. Equally, it's pointles to predict what George Hutchinson would or would not have done whether he was guilty or innocent of the murder of Mary Kelly, you can not think for George Hutchinson.

Well...ain't this a bit strange...

From the off I argued that Hutchinson may well have done it but he is not the best suspect based on what we know.

You are attempting to make him more viable than the known evidence....so I played the game.....for everything you suggested is plausible I offered a plausible alternative.....thinking that was the deal.....but it seems you want to turn competing possibilities into some sort of vindication for your theory.

But what you can't possibly do is come up with any evidence that makes him a probable. Not in a million years.

So at this point you're pretty much grasping at anything to keep the discussion going.....even going with the you can't prove he didn't do it so it makes him a suspect.....well yeah you can't prove there's no god.....

At this juncture Observer...I'm rapidly coming round to the conclusion that you just want to win an argument. Me? Hanging around or lying ain't enough.....no matter your speculation.

[DVV]

Hi David, I don't think he could open a tin of beans, kidding Macca kidding.

All the best Observer

Point taken ! I stand corrected !

Amitiés,
David

[Observer]

How can you say so, Observer ?

Can't you realize this guy is opening a new era ?

Amitiés,
David

Hi David, I don't think he could open a tin of beans, kidding Macca kidding.

All the best Observer

[DVV]

Observer



Exactly. My train of thought is totaly alien to you, you could not have predicted it, my logic baffles you, you see we are all different. Equally, it's pointles to predict what George Hutchinson would or would not have done whether he was guilty or innocent of the murder of Mary Kelly, you can not think for George Hutchinson.

How can you say so, Observer ?

Can't you realize this guy is opening a new era ?

Amitiés,
David

[Garry Wroe]

But equally, as you say, Hutchinson could have been lying simply to give the impression that he had not waited until after the inquest - he must have known it was a question that he would obviously be asked by the police once he had come forward. He may simply have been adding yet another lie to make it appear that he had indeed come forward before the inquest when in all probability he had done no such thing.

I don't doubt it for a moment. Indeed, it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that Hutchinson's alleged conversation with a policeman on Petticoat Lane was checked, found to be untrue, and led to the first stirrings of suspicion with regard to the integrity of his police statement.

Again, were this a competent modern investigation, Hutchinson's demonstrable mendacity coupled with his presence at a crime scene at a time critical to a murder would stimulate genuine suspicion on the part of investigators.

Garry Wroe.

[Observer]

Observer

I'm not.....I'm saying that is the logical answer...no matter the person.

But this a bit rich Observer....considering your trail of thought.....which starts with "could have been lying"....and is the basis for "major suspect".

Exactly. My train of thought is totaly alien to you, you could not have predicted it, my logic baffles you, you see we are all different. Equally, it's pointles to predict what George Hutchinson would or would not have done whether he was guilty or innocent of the murder of Mary Kelly, you can not think for George Hutchinson.

[DVV]

Really?

Some graffiti about Jewish citizens which did not in any way shape of form mention murder or murder sites must be linked to a series of murders becase some apron was found underneath?

I find the opposite. I'd estimate there's a small chance that it had anything to do with the murders.

I feel you two may be in on your own joke here - but this doesn't seem the site for it.

Oh I see... Another genius on boards.

He finds.
He estimates.
He feels.

And I don't care.