Proof of identity

[Debra A]

Hi Ben,If only the newspaper article had told us where his shop was! But we can try...

Charles Harris, the shopkeeper/pawnbroker in question, seems to have been living in Battersea Park Road in 1881 - his brother, Edwin (described as "Pawnbroker's assistant"), living on the premises with him. I've found no definitive trace of either Charles or Edwin subsequently, although an Edwin Harris of the right age turns up as a silversmith in Hatton Garden in 1891. If it's the same Edwin, then we may have an indication that the family had business premises in the City (i.e. Hatton Garden) by 1891.

There are actually three men named charles Harris in the 1891 census connected to pawnbroking Sam. Two of them are pawnbrokers managers as per the news report, Charles R Harris at 6 Romily Road Islington and Charles H Harris 158 Spa Road Bermondsey. The Charles A Harris you picked out is still at 6 Cambridge Road in 91 and is described as a pawnbroker jeweller, if we are going to be anal about this I'd go with the managers above the one you picked
anyway, that still leaves us with no idea where the shop was in my view.

unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

I said that a man could turn to drink and prostitutes and return to the face of respectability in the 10 years between a census, meaning we just don't know, that applies to any of the George's we pick out that do or don't seem to fit our views of what George Hutchinson was to us.

The only definite way to rule him, or any others we pick out would be to look at the individuals signature and compare it with the statement. I got off my arse and attempted to do this for one of them at least. If I had the time and inclination anymore I'd do a few more even!!

One last thing, Rose Mylett told people she lived at Bow... but she didn't.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

Not having seen those signatures, I can't possibly comment. But it would be really useful if we could have them posted here for comparison, needless to say. Possibly conclusive, even!

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I see no reason for doubting any of this, and - unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

I don't wish to speak for Debs, but from what I gather from her research, there are ample reasons to doubt the "well-connectedness" of the family. That doesn't mean, necssarily, that he's the "witness" of JTR notoriety, but he's the best of a bad bunch of "George Hutchinsons", and he's on another plain to tenuous Toppy. The bare fact that he was living in the East End at the right time, and that a registrar believed the signatures matched puts him ahead of the others - well, the ones named "George Hutchinson" anyway.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Ben,

I meant the druggist store in Aldgate. Since he'd gone there after drinking heavily, it's a safe enough bet that he'd been drinking in the area, and it most locals tend to visit the same pubs fairly "frequently". I confused Harris with the druggist - sorry!

Indeed, it was Harris - rather than the druggist - who "knew" the defendant. This, on the surface, suggests that Hutchison frequented Harris's manor more than the druggist's. Perhaps, given his profession, Hutchison supplied Harris with stationery.

Now, he wouldn't have gone far if Harris were his only outlet, and clearly Hutchison would have had other customers. This, alone, might be suggestive of his "frequenting" the Aldgate/City area, but - and this is crucial - in a business capacity only. To me, this would be a more likely reason behind Hutchison being drunk in the Aldgate area - a few swift ones whilst on business. The alternative scenario, in which he strolled there from a bunk at (say) the Victoria Home, seems somewhat tortuous in comparison.

Hutchison did, after all, state that he was living in Bow at the time - and the Times describes him as "well-connected" and respectably dressed. I see no reason for doubting any of this, and - unconfirmed speculation that he fell on hard times between 1887 and 1891 apart - I'm pretty sure in myself that the watch-stealer is unlikely to have been "our George".

[Ben]

Hi Gareth,

I meant the druggist store in Aldgate. Since he'd gone there after drinking heavily, it's a safe enough bet that he'd been drinking in the area, and of course most locals tend to visit the same pubs fairly "frequently". I confused Harris with the druggist - sorry! Thanks for the info, though.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Ben,

the fact that the shopkeeper knew him suggests very strongly that this wasn't his first visit to the area.

If only the newspaper article had told us where his shop was! But we can try...

Charles Harris, the shopkeeper/pawnbroker in question, seems to have been living in Battersea Park Road in 1881 - his brother, Edwin (described as "Pawnbroker's assistant"), living on the premises with him. I've found no definitive trace of either Charles or Edwin subsequently, although an Edwin Harris of the right age turns up as a silversmith in Hatton Garden in 1891. If it's the same Edwin, then we may have an indication that the family had business premises in the City (i.e. Hatton Garden) by 1891.

[Ben]

Thanks for that timely reminder of the relevent details relating to George Thomas Hutchinson, Debs! Great work on your part, and again, the fact that one of the registrars discerned a match between his signature and that appended to the statement remains extremely tantalizing.

As for his Aldgate connections, you're quite right; he clearly "went" there in order to be seen there in 1887 (which is more then can be said for any other "George Hutchinson" according to extant evidence), and the fact that the shopkeeper knew him suggests very strongly that this wasn't his first visit to the area.

Best regards,
Ben

[Sam Flynn]

Ah, he was known to have been in Aldgate and least one time in 1887 anyway as that's where he met the guy he stole the watch from isn't it?

The question is, whether we can extrapolate from that one event to an assertion that he "frequented" the area, Debs I know Westgate Street in Cardiff quite well, on account of it's being near the Millennium Stadium, but I don't "frequent" it. I only go there when there's a rugby match on.

[Bob Hinton]

Richard take note.....

The planet appears to be teeming with Toppy's descendents. One of Toppy's daughters died as recently as 1999, and I have an address for one of her children (may not be up to date though). I will follow that up and see if it leads us anywhere.

David

this is the sort of thing you need to do to carry your ideas forward. David has done some research and found people you really need to be interviewed.

Great work David and Debra! (Sounds like a double act)

[Debra A]

Ah, he was known to have been in Aldgate and least one time in 1887 anyway as that's where he met the guy he stole the watch from isn't it?

[Debra A]

Hi Sam, Ben

Been there, Simon! If there hadn't been a server crash, I'd point you to the thread! As it is, I can at least inform you that the watch-stealer was George S Hutchinson/Hutchison, a stationer, whom I found at Cottage Grove, Mile End, in the 1891 Census. There he is listed as a widower, and living with his parents.

Most of the research I did on George Thomas was never posted to the boards and poor people like Ben and a few others were privy to a lot of my usual research ramblings...you know how these things can go ...I can't seem to remember the Aldgate connection myself at the moment, but maybe Ben can refresh my memory.
Anyway, the upshot is, George Thomas could have been anywhere and doing anything between 15th October 1884, when his wife died, and 1891 when he is found living with his father George Pierson Hutchinson at Cottage Grove
We know he looks as if he was going off the rails between that time anyway, being drunk and stealing watches in 1887.
His father George Pierson Hutchinson probably wasn't the affluent person he appears to be either. He was several times a bankrupt and had been in debtors prison in Oxfordshire at least twice when George was young. There were also family connections to a few places in Essex (none to Romford found though) before George was born the family were living at Mossford Green in Essex, and a cousin of George senior was also born in Essex. George Thomas Hutchinson did have one son b c 1881 and after the death of his mother in 1884 he was farmed out to various relatives, eventually ending up in Essex himself.
Personally, I don't think either GWTH or Cottage Grove George Thomas can be ruled out based on occupations or locations at any one given time alone, the census is a snapshot of a life every ten years that's all, we can't possibly know what they were up to in the years in between. A man could turn to drink, prostitutes and go crazy for a few years and then return to respectability in the space of ten years without us even knowing I'm sure!
I think signature comparisons could possibly rule them out though, and like Ben said, one registrar was almost certain that the signature of George Thomas did match that of the signatures on the witness statement (she didn't say which particular one) while another registrar didn't think they did.They were going to copy the original page in the register for me with the original signature but it was too fragile to do this in the end. I was told I would need written permission to view the entry myself and so that is the reason why I didn't continue any further after that, but I've offered my research up before to anyone else who's interested in looking into it, and the offer still stands.

[Suzi]

...which might, oddly enough, explain why the story appeared only in an American newspaper, rather than in any organs of the local press.

When did you last pay £5 for a plumber Sam???? Polish though???????????? hehe

[David Knott]

The planet appears to be teeming with Toppy's descendents. One of Toppy's daughters died as recently as 1999, and I have an address for one of her children (may not be up to date though). I will follow that up and see if it leads us anywhere.

David

[Sam Flynn]

As for George Thomas Hutchi(n)son, the watch thief from Cottage Grove, he is a better bet by far, at least in comparison to the others. He was known to frequent Aldgate

Where is it written that George S Hutchi(n)son frequented Aldgate, Ben?

[Ben]

Hi David,

Re your post #84, the point was that Ben was doubting that Toppy would have ever been anything other than a plumber (or apprentice), whereas Toppy's own father spent some time labouring before entering the family trade.

That was when he was 15 though, before his plumbing apprenticeship started. That's a lot different to starting a plumbing apprenticeship courtesy of his father (which was a huge bonus for someone in Toppy's position), then suddenly deciding "Nah, can't be arsed with that" some time in his late teens, before boning off to the East End for three years and becoming a groom-come-labourer.

He appears to have been married with a child in 1888

That doesn't help his candidacy, I agree, but he can still be placed as living in the East End, which is more than can be said for the Toppster, and there's nothing implausible about a period of seperation from wife and kids. At least, not as implausible as Toppy's jiggery-pokery viz a viz his occupation(s).

As for George Thomas Hutchi(n)son, the watch thief from Cottage Grove, he is a better bet by far, at least in comparison to the others. He was known to frequent Aldgate and lived in the right area; very close, in fact, to where Ada Wilson was attacked by a wideawake-wearing knife-wielder. In his case, at least one registrar believed the signature to have been a match with the witness statement. Debra Arif did the lion's share of research into this character, and she may wish to add her two cents worth. He died in 1925.

He's still not my Nunero Uno candidate, but he's one of the better bets, and on another plain to tenuous Toppy.

Best regards,
Ben