Are the reports in the contempory newpapers sufficient to discredit Hutchinson?

[Wickerman]

Are you drawing the conclusion that because he dressed up somewhere else at a different time and place that this would also be how he would dress in the early hours along Dorset street?

Have you sources for this we can all read?

I thought from the above post that there was some overwhelming evidence from historical research that Jews wearing gold watches and dressed up to the nines frequented Dorset St., at those hours or around other dangerous parts of Whitechapel?

I don't see that at all and doubt there are sources for anything like that.

I know, and thats why you think the way you do.
You are not saying that you have researched this and found it to be wrong, what you are saying is you have not researched it so you don't believe it.
An argument from ignorance is not a convincing argument.
I also know you have no intention of ever accepting it.

When I have concluded my research on Joseph Isaacs you can read it for yourself. Meanwhile, why don't you read up on the type of people who lived and moved around in Whitechapel, and how wealthy many of them were.

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

The implausible "George Hutchinson" story reeks like a week-old barrel of red herrings, and the whiff gets stronger once you realise it got corroborated by none other than himself.

Abberline and the other signatories to GH's oh-so timely crock of old horsefeathers don't exactly come out of this piece of jiggery-pokery smelling of roses.

Regards,

Simon

[Batman]

Are you drawing the conclusion that because he dressed up somewhere else at a different time and place that this would also be how he would dress in the early hours along Dorset street?

Have you sources for this we can all read?

I thought from the above post that there was some overwhelming evidence from historical research that Jews wearing gold watches and dressed up to the nines frequented Dorset St., at those hours or around other dangerous parts of Whitechapel?

I don't see that at all and doubt there are sources for anything like that.

[Wickerman]

I doubt Hutchison's description because such a person dressed in that way on Dorset St., would have been a target for a mugging like nobodies business. I think its an antisemitic type caricature of what the press where looking for.

I haven't seen those threads. If you have citations for it then I will read it but until then my doubt I think is warranted by common sense and the history of Dorset St.

Even slummers dressed down.

Isaacs lived in Paternoster Row, just a small walk from Millers Court, he lived among the criminal element, he was one of them.
Isaacs was not an outsider wandering through outlaw territory, this was his home!

Don't you think for a moment that if a character of this sort was out of place in Whitechapel, Abberline would have known this?
Abberline knew this place like the back of his hand.

[Batman]

The article does not say what time of day this was, and this occurred at Dover, not in Whitechapel. I never said it occurred in Whitechapel, but you went on to say you wanted examples of respectably dressed people walking the streets of Whitechapel, which has been posted on other threads.

I doubt Hutchison's description because such a person dressed in that way on Dorset St., would have been a target for a mugging like nobodies business. I think its an antisemitic type caricature of what the press where looking for.

I haven't seen those threads. If you have citations for it then I will read it but until then my doubt I think is warranted by common sense and the history of Dorset St.

Even slummers dressed down.

[Wickerman]

I thought that the author Stephen Knight was given a sealed document that revealed that Hutchinson had described this man to Abberline. At the time of Knight's book that may have been a revelation, but so was Tumblety at the time Evans wrote his books, yet look at all the press since found on Tumblety and Hutchinson's man from the contemporary. Huge amount.

I must confess it has to be over 15 years since I read Knights book, but I do remember a photo of Hutchinson's statement in the book. This is the statement he gave to Badham, that must be what you are talking about.

If you have the "Ultimate" the report Ben & I are discussing is on page 377-78, or at the end of chapter 21, following Hutchinson's police statement. This report begins with Abberline outlining the Inquest that took place that day, which will have taken up most of his day on the 12th. It ends with a brief summary outlining his interview with Hutchinson later that night.

The complete interrogation has not survived. If you look in Knights book you can see the letter-head of the statement written by Hutchinson. The report to Central Office is on different paper, for obvious reason's.

A written record of Abberline's interrogation of Hutchinson was necessary in the event that this case does go to trial. The interrogation will then be offered into evidence, so a written record is a legal requirement.
Sadly, it has not survived.

[Wickerman]

Sorry I asked you to post the citation for this and I think you said something about someone called Isaac who dressed up this way and a watch, but I haven't read your source which covers this.

Did you provide one or are you just saying it is so?

No, but what you asked to see is not what I said existed.

I do have the account of Isaacs impersonating a detective, likely all suited up, as we know Scotland Yard detectives wore suits. But it was also noted that he flaunted an imitation gold watch chain, with a sham medal, but no watch on the end of it.

The article does not say what time of day this was, and this occurred at Dover, not in Whitechapel. I never said it occurred in Whitechapel, but you went on to say you wanted examples of respectably dressed people walking the streets of Whitechapel, which has been posted on other threads.

Isaacs was described by one who saw him as a "fancy-dressed" Jew. He apparently took pride in his appearance, dressed above his means, and considered himself as some sort of Dandy.
He was not your average impoverished East-ender in a flat cap, shabby jacket and hobnail boots.
Joseph Isaacs "dressed to impress", it was all part of his act to present himself as somebody he wasn't.

[Batman]

I'm well aware of what you refer to, but that is not a report on his interview with Hutchinson. That is a brief summary of what Abberline has been involved in that particular day.
A Days-end summary, if you like. Such a report is mentioned in a press article as part of their duties.

I thought that the author Stephen Knight was given a sealed document that revealed that Hutchinson had described this man to Abberline. At the time of Knight's book that may have been a revelation, but so was Tumblety at the time Evans wrote his books, yet look at all the press since found on Tumblety and Hutchinson's man from the contemporary. Huge amount.

[Batman]

the past which demonstrate this is completely untrue, people did walk around "dressed up". I can only imagine you have not looked that far into it. Perhaps, instead, you choose to repeat the opinions of others?

Sorry I asked you to post the citation for this and I think you said something about someone called Isaac who dressed up this way and a watch, but I haven't read your source which covers this.

Did you provide one or are you just saying it is so?

[Wickerman]

Abberline submitted a report on Hutchinson AFTER his interview with Hutchinson; it was an internal, private police report, and it has survived. Are you suggesting that he deliberately withheld from his superiors details that had a direct bearing on Hutchinson’s credibility?

I'm well aware of what you refer to, but that is not a report on his interview with Hutchinson. That is a brief summary of what Abberline has been involved in that particular day.
A Days-end summary, if you like. Such a report is mentioned in a press article as part of their duties.

[Wickerman]

My hypothesis actually doesn't require Hutchinson to be omitted at all. As you can plainly read people like myself who suspect Blotchy can have Hutchinson there. It doesn't matter to us. There could be various people gathered out there at different times. Has no impact. This is because Hutchinson could have been there but made up the flawting rich Jew story to divert suspicion from himself.

This (in bold) is something I wanted to ask you about.

Typically, the reason given for Hutchinson talking about seeing this rich-looking Jew is to divert attention away from himself.
You say it again above, but you also say elsewhere that "no-one dressed like that in this part of town".

Examples have been posted in the past which demonstrate this is completely untrue, people did walk around "dressed up". I can only imagine you have not looked that far into it. Perhaps, instead, you choose to repeat the opinions of others?

That aside for a moment, have you considered why a man like Hutchinson attempting to divert suspicion away from himself would invent a character that simply "could not exist"?
What benefit is there for him to do that?

Wouldn't it make more sense to tell Abberline that he saw a Blotchy character leaving Millers Court?

If you had the need to divert attention from yourself, would you make up a character that "couldn't exist"?

[Wickerman]

... I don’t know where you got the idea that Isaacs was a “confidence trickster”, but there’s not a lot of evidence for that either.

Confidence Trickster.
A person who sets out to defraud or deceive people by persuading them to believe something that is not true:

He was arrested trying to pass himself off as a detective, with intent to gain entrance to the pier, and possibly the ship in dock.
Or, perhaps to ply his trade as pick-pocket on the pier.
He was also arrested posing as a musician, but couldn't play a note.

What would you call that?

[Wickerman]

No.

Astrakhan’s description is nothing like Joseph Isaacs,...

Gotcha.
Humour me Ben, just what does Joseph Isaacs look like?

Consider your answer with care, because I have an observation from someone who saw him.
I also know his hair colour, his height, his 'attire', and a significant mark of identity.

So go ahead, state the basis for that comment.

[Wickerman]

That is an extremely puzzling observation, considering that he never makes any such claim:

"They both went into Dorset Street I followed them. They both stood at the corner of the Court for about 3 minutes. He said something to her. She said alright my dear come along you will be comfortable He then placed his arm on her shoulder and gave her a kiss. She said she had lost her handkercheif he then pulled his handkercheif a red one out and gave it to her. They both then went up the court together. I then went to the Court to see if I could see them, but could not. I stood there for about three quarters of an hour to see if they came out they did not so I went away."
Police Statement.

If I'm not mistaken, Millers Court is the backyard to nos 26-27 Dorset St.

[Abby Normal]

If I'm honest I tend to skim over the Hutch threads - it's probably a big weakness on my part, but generally the same old arguments seem to appear time and time again, until it becomes a cut and paste war...this, however, is an observation that seems really worth cutting and pasting over and over again...thanks Abby

All the best

Dave

Thanks Cog
appreciate that!