When does many become many?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Sam,
I agree entirely with that, I just had to make that point to Ben.
Regards Richard.

[Sam Flynn]

Thanks, Rich - I might add "radio programmes" to my list, too

[Fisherman]

Okay, Ben, here we have your logic applied to a few examples on the net. Five minutes of googling brought them up (I halted after page three, but there were innumerable (many) examples left):

About a Swedish museum in Gothenburg:
“The museum is opened by daytime during the summer and you are also able to rent it for conferences, weddings and similar things.”

According to Ben, that means the museum is open for conferences, weddings and things similar to weddings only. Not, though, for class get-togethers, funerals and graduation parties, since these are of course dissimilar to weddings.

A factory sells:
“galvanized iron used for roofing and similar things”

According to Ben, that iron is only meant for things similar to roofing. They won´t sell it otherwise.

An academic paper concerning:
“Punjabi Behaviour : Society, Family Values and similar things”

According to Ben, we can forget about things similar to society matters – only a similarity to family values count!

”Problem with Web Services, Pending Call and similar things”

…is something where this website offers help. But if it does not touch on web services, pending calls or things similar to pending calls only, it´s useless to contact them, according to Ben.

“This is the place to get support for problems related to usage, compilation and similar things.”

Same problem here, I´m afraid; if it is not usage problems, compilation or similar to compilation, you´re sold out.

An enthusiastic computer game player:
“I can't afford this one at moment but have enjoyed playing with the demo. It's awesome for creating lens flares, suns, light bursts and similar things, such as SFX of space engines, weapons fire etc.”

NOW it´s getting complicated! How on earth can two completely dissimilar things like SFX of space engines and weapons fire BOTH be similar to light bursts? Because, like Ben tells us, “similar to” only applies to the last mentioned factor – in this case the light bursts. It would not – once again according to Ben – be a case of similar things pointing to sound and light effects in general. No, sir, there is no way that could be what the writer meant!

About Pakistani schools:
“Schools also place a lot of importance on school uniforms, neat hair, clean cut nails and similar things.”

And what could they not care less about? The shoes, obviously, since they are wildly dissimilar to the school uniform – they may be tattered and torn. The schoolbags, too, may be dirty and in pieces. The school books too, of course. And you may arrive at every lesson with your bottom dipped in pig urine and with a face strewn with horse manure – since neither of these things are included in “school uniforms, neat hair, clean cut nails” - or anything similar to clean cut nails. A bottom is distinctly dissimilar to a nail, just like a face is dissimilar to a school uniform.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

you may arrive at every lesson with your bottom dipped in pig urine and with a face strewn with horse manure.

...sounds like my school.

(Off-topic, but true story: There was this chap who'd wash his hair and apply conditioner after each rugby match. This being distinctly un-macho behaviour, not befitting a rugby player, it was decided to teach him a lesson. One of the other lads, whose dad was a farmer, swapped his bottle of hair-conditioner for one of the same brand filled with bull's semen. What larks!)

[Victor]

(Off-topic, but true story: There was this chap who'd wash his hair and apply conditioner after each rugby match. This being distinctly un-macho behaviour, not befitting a rugby player, it was decided to teach him a lesson. One of the other lads, whose dad was a farmer, swapped his bottle of hair-conditioner for one of the same brand filled with bull's semen. What larks!)

He had it easy...we had a similar situation but we did the switch with Imac!!

[Howard Brown]

Excuse me Sammy...

I think someone was pulling your leg. Bull semen is around 700 US dollars an ounce. I know that at one time it was more expensive than gold by the ounce. I sort of doubt that the story given you is true unless the person is an idiot.

[perrymason]

I think you illustrated the point rather well Fisherman.

"Similar" would refer to something that is contextually within the same realm, not just refer to something that is similar to the last item in the list, as it were.

"Our convention hall hold conferences, symposiums and similar events."

That means to me that larger gatherings of people would be common in that Hall, including events like Trade Shows, Product Launches, Musical events, Sporting events, ....

All the best FM

[Jon Guy]

"Similar" would refer to something that is contextually within the same realm, not just refer to something that is similar to the last item in the list, as it were.

Blinkin heck, Mike, I think that is the most complicated sentence I`ve ever seen.

[perrymason]

Blinkin heck, Mike, I think that is the most complicated sentence I`ve ever seen.

I doubt that Jon ,...but simply said, as per my example, the quote in context suggests that large events with many people in attendance can be facilitated in that Convention Hall. It does not suggest that events only similar to symposiums can be handled.

Cheers mate

[Fisherman]

Sam and Vic:

"One of the other lads, whose dad was a farmer, swapped his bottle of hair-conditioner for one of the same brand filled with bull's semen. What larks!"

"He had it easy...we had a similar situation but we did the switch with Imac!!"

Not sure I need to hear a third suggestion on this one... Bulls semen or Imac; thats a tough call!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Michael writes:

"Our convention hall hold conferences, symposiums and similar events."
"That means to me that larger gatherings of people would be common in that Hall, including events like Trade Shows, Product Launches, Musical events, Sporting events, ...."

Yep, Mike, and it means the same to just about everybody. Just about, that is...

Incidentally, I spoke to a language teacher about this, and her wiew was that as long as there was some sort of connection inbetween the listed entities (like, for example, their ability to influence handwriting), then if you mean that similar refers only the last listed thing, you must clarify this by adding for example "....A, B, C and similar things to C"

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

Excuse me Sammy...

I think someone was pulling your leg. Bull semen is around 700 US dollars an ounce. I know that at one time it was more expensive than gold by the ounce. I sort of doubt that the story given you is true unless the person is an idiot.

I take your point, but I'm not sure that the megabucks factor would have applied to a tiny, scruffy family farm in 1980s mid-Wales, Howard.

[Ben]

Fisherman,

The suggestion is dishonest, stupid, illogical, ridiculous AND SIMILAR THINGS.

But those charming epithets that you delight to hurl in my direction have a good deal of obvious similarity with eachother, so it would make sense to include "and similar things" in that amusing volley of abuse. The named explanation provided by Leander had no similarity with eachother, so in thr absence of any specifity as to what these other unamed things are suposed to be similar to, the statement becomes meaningless, unless of course he meant "similar to" the last mentioned explanation which was "function of the pen" and there can't be "many explanations that fit that description.

Since that's so obviously what he meant - and said - I wouldn't "have him say" anything different. It's really rather pointless reminding everyone what an unsavoury character he supposedly thinks I am - a total stranger to him, especially after telling him that I had accused him of lying, and that I was a "so-called ripperologist" (I don't call myself anything of the sort, thankyoi very much). When faced with such a rhetoric-laden post that appealed to emotions, you can't really have banked on him reacting differently.

Geez, man, give it a rest.

No, you give it a rest.

I'm not the one spoiling to start a new round of "cyber ping pong" the moment the old one starts to die off. Maybe you should try easing off once in a while, and maybe I'll consider following suit

[Ben]

I am refering to Topping not Reg,when speaking of mentioning a man of well doing, and the payment issue, this would have happened some sixty years before Fairclough

But who told us that all this occured without anything even vaguely resembling corroboration, Richard?

Yep. Reg. So you really shouldn't be all that surprised when I refer to him as the origin of this particular tale. It isn't remotely unlikely that a man with the same name of the witness would hear about the account in the papers, and then claim falsely that he was the man featured therein, whether for fame, money or s simply joke. However, I don't think that's what happened here. Instead, I rather suspect that Reg was the originator of the "tale" when he sensed that he could earn himself a few quid by milking the cow that was the latest royal conspiracy. Other family members could susequenly towed the line either out or genuine ignorance, or to avoid a close relative being publicly exposed as a liar.

Fact is Ben.. Hutchinson had to have a regular income as he would never have passed the vetting required to be a permanent resident of the Victoria home, infact if i remember correctly, i believe the police had a hand in the vetting.

But the far more crucial fact is that the POLICE were under the impression that Hutchinson was without regular employment, and it would have been the POLICE who were responsible for any witness pay-offs. The police could not have reimbursed him five times his normal salary when. as far as they were concerned, he didn't even HAVE a normal salary.

Which is why there can be no interesting coincidence involving Reg's claims and the Wheeling Register, since there's no possibility that the figures could have matched eachother even slightly.

All the best,
Ben

[Ben]

Edit: Other family members could susequenly towed the line

Ouch. I meant "Other family members could have towed the line, subsequently". And I meant "specificity" not "specifity". Long weekend.

There's more!

For someone who purports to treat me with so much contempt, this Fisherman character spends an obsessive amount of mental energy on me, and now he's even threatening to "start a new thread" whenever he thinks or insists I must be misinterpreting something, which, I'm sorry, is just Ahabian zealotry. Now he's been a-googlin again, which is a sure sign of lots of lovely long aggressive posts to come:

“The museum is opened by daytime during the summer and you are also able to rent it for conferences, weddings and similar things.

Which is a perfectly legimate sentence. Conferences and weddings are obviously similar insofar as they refer to mass social gatherings of people, and you're right, lot's of similar events could be envisaged. If, on the other hand, he had said that it can be used for conferences, hippos and deoderant and similar things, then he'd be making a perculiar statement, misapplying "similar" in the process.

According to Ben, that iron is only meant for things similar to roofing.

That's because it is. Any form of construction will, of necessity, be similar to roofing, and construction is what galvanised iron is chiefly used for, so that sentence was also used in its correct context and illustrated my point rather well.

“Punjabi Behaviour : Society, Family Values and similar things”

Same again. The "things" cited all came under the category of social ethics, so the author clearly meant "similar things" that entered into the same category, wholly unlike the three explanations cited by Leander, which were completely different.

…is something where this website offers help. But if it does not touch on web services, pending calls or things similar to pending calls only, it´s useless to contact them, according to Ben.

Yep, pretty much the same deal again. The website clearly offers help with internet related problems. It cites two such problems that share an obvious similarity with eachother, and goes on to state that it can provide help with equally similar prolems. It didn't claim to provide help with connectivity, constipation and similar things.

NOW it´s getting complicated! How on earth can two completely dissimilar things like SFX of space engines and weapons fire BOTH be similar to light bursts?

Sounds like you're not terribly familiar with computer games if you think there's anythong remotly dissimilar about the things mentioned by that particular gamer. What he means is that he cannot create special effects such as weapon blasts and sun flashes (and all the rest of it). Anyone can comprehend the similarity in the items referred to. Of course he meant sound and lighting effects in general, but that isn't remotely analogous to the explanations named by Leander.

“Schools also place a lot of importance on school uniforms, neat hair, clean cut nails and similar things.

Cleanliess, tidiness. That's the strong similarity shared by all of those features referred to, so the "similar things" would naturally be other details that relate specifically to cleanliess, which, once again, isn't remotely analagous to the Leander explanations which ranged from age to "pen function", which is a huge leap when compared to neat hair and cleancut nails, which both belong in the same easily discernible catergory - personal hygene.

Let's have a 300 page debate just on this topic.