Hutch and an alibi?

[Ben]

Right you are, Jon.

Alcohol would slow down the rate of digestion too.

Best regards,
Ben

[Normy]

Hiya all
Don't you think it's at all possible Hutchy was waiting for the man he said he saw, with the intention of mugging him?
He said the guy 'Wore a very thick gold chain'
and also
'Hutchinson will you lend me sixpence. I said I cant I have spent all my money going down to Romford.'
Maybe he really did see this man and thought, easy pickings in a fairly dark courtyard!

Cheers.

Normy

[Jane Welland]

Hi Normy

One problem with that notion is that if Hutchinson was waiting to mug said Mr A on his re-appearance from No. 13, why didn't he? And it is quite unlikely that he did, because if he had, Mr A would surely have had something to say about it when Lewis' testimony appeared, and even more to the point, when Hutchinson presented himself at Commercial Street Station and said, in effect 'Yep, I was there, Guv.'.

It's an interesting idea, but takes a lot for granted - such as that Mr A, a well to do Toff Jew, was ever hanging around in this extremely dangerous part of Whitechapel amidst widespread panic over the Whitechapel Murders and considerable ill feeling towards the Jewish community to boot - at all.

He would have had to had a death wish.

'Hutchy' may well have gone in for the odd spot of mugging, for all we know, but I have to doubt that Mr A was amongst his victims, I'm afraid.

All the best

Jane x

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Normy.

To my mind, there are two distinct stumbling blocks with regard to Hutchinson's Kelly-related claims. First, why is it that we have no further reported sightings of the highly distinguished Jewish-looking suspect? Secondly, Hutchinson's claim that Kelly was not drunk when he met her on Commercial Street was directly contradicted by the evidence of Mary Ann Cox ‒ who, of course, maintained that Kelly's drunkenness was such that she was barely able to speak shortly before midnight.

The obvious conclusion is that Hutchinson did not meet Kelly as claimed in his police statement. If so, it is likely that the story concerning the Jewish-looking suspect was also untrue.

Regards.

Garry Wroe.

[Normy]

Hi Jane and Garry

First of all I’m not sure about Hutchinson one way or another, just throwing around ideas so to speak.
If Hutch contemplated mugging the man, he could have lost his nerve as it was too busy, or thought it was a stupid idea as he waited so long.
Though if he had done it I don’t think the gentleman would have made a claim to the police, as he could well have been from a well to do family and would’t want anyone knowing he’d visited a prostitute, let alone one who got killed by possibly, Jack the Ripper.
I’m sure there were quite a few well to do toffs hanging around in places that were best not frequented, and I’m sure they still do.

Cox makes these statments;
I last saw her alive on Thursday night, at a quarter to twelve, very much intoxicated.

[Coroner] You say she was drunk ? - I did not notice she was drunk until she said good night.

I think there’s a possible discrepencey with those lines, in one it makes MJK sound very drunk indeed but in the other, not obvious at all until she spoke, or misheard by Mary Ann Cox.

George Hutchinson doesn’t say one way or another if MJK was drunk, or sounded as if she had been drinking (sorry if it’s on the forum somewhere I didn’t see it)

Just a thought.

Cheers
Normy

[Ben]

I’m sure there were quite a few well to do toffs hanging around in places that were best not frequented, and I’m sure they still do.

I personally doubt that, Normy.

"Toffs" generally didn't venture into what were popularly advertised as some of the worst grot-spots in the Capital, and the precious few who did knew a good deal better than to attire themselves in the most opulent and conspicuous garb imaginable. It would be quite a coincidence if such an unlikely occurance just so happened to coincide with a "Jack the Ripper" murder, especially in light of the bogeyman myths that had been in circulation to the effect that the killer might be a surly-looking Jewish outsider and/or with a medical background. Unless, of course, Hutchinson invented the character because he knew full well that such an individual would represent the easiest scapegoat around.

All the best,
Ben

[Normy]

Hi Ben
Thanks for the info and points taken.
Do you think there’s any possibility that Hutch could have elaborated on the sighting just to make his alibi sound reasonable?
I mean maybe there was a man he followed with the intention of doing him over, not as well dressed as he said but he may have spotted the chain, or something about him and thought ‘cash’!

Throw me a bone, I’m becoming sceptical of it even as I write.

Cheers.

Normy

[Ben]

Hey Normy,

I think if Hutchinson had any mugging intentions that night, he would not have referred specifically to expensive items when communicating with the police, whether the items were real or invented.

All the best,
Ben

[Normy]

Hi Ben
Thanks again for your input.
On the references to MJK being drunk or not I have just watched the first part of Vic Reeves investigates which BillyE kindly posted on another thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4t_R7bm3_40

As Vic introduces the victims he says the final victim MJK 'was 25, not a known drinker' (3.05 into the programme).

Where would he have got that information? Does it have any bearing on the statements of Cox and Hutch?

Cheers.

Normy

[Jane Welland]

here's a thought...

Speaking of co-incidences ….

Has it struck anyone as a tiny bit curious – one might even suggest, suspicious (!) that Kelly, having just asked her long term acquaintance George for money; having just told him that she must go and find some money, in fact, since he was unable to supply any: walks off - to immediately, straight away and without having to look at all – come face to face with a wealthy, happens-to-look-damned-suspicious client? (who just happened to be looking for a young ‘unfortunate’ such as herself…)

Does this really strike anyone as likely? At all?

Not me, for one.

Then there’s the weather. Even if Hutchinson and even if Kelly might have been obliged to wander about in the cold November rain at 2 in the morning, I’m rather afraid I doubt if a toff had any such requirements.

I think I agree with Garry about Hutchinson – I don’t think he saw Mary outside at 2am at all.

That doesn’t mean he wasn’t there, though.

Best to all

Jane x

[Normy]

Hi Jane
Yes that is odd, to walk right into the richest looking man in Whitechapel!!
As you say, he’d not need to walk about in the rain, hmm.

I still wonder about Cox’s statement though, if she thought MJK was drunk but only noticed when she spoke. The vic Reeves prog’ stating she was not a known drinker.
Then like other witnesses mention, she starts singing, nobody says she was singing in a drunken fashion, slurring her words or sounding drunk.
Maybe her singing was too unclear, though they knew it was her.
I just wonder how accurate Cox’s statement is? She didn’t see MJK from the front until they got to the door. Could she have mistaken Elizabeth Prater for her? No surely not.

Normy

[babybird67]

Normy

not entirely sure but i think it was Joseph Barnett who said she wasnt a habitual drinker at the inquest...i'll try to find out for you and post back in a sec...

ahh here it is...Chris Scott's fantastic inquest post...Joseph Barnett says she was of sober habits in general. He knew her for 18 months prior to her death. Hope this helps.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=638&highlight=Joseph+Barnett+inquest

[Sam Flynn]

Has it struck anyone as a tiny bit curious that Kelly, having just asked her long term acquaintance George for money; having just told him that she must go and find some money, in fact, since he was unable to supply any: walks off - to immediately, straight away and without having to look at all – come face to face with a wealthy, happens-to-look-damned-suspicious client?

Coincident, perhaps, with local newspaper reports that Kelly had declared to a (female) friend that she must find some money, and that tales of "respectably dressed" gentlemen with a sardonic line in repartee, clutching mysterious packages, had also appeared all over the press in connection with this and previous murders. Indeed, these men seen by other witnesses to have resembled Hutchinson's description(s) of Astrakhan Man in several important aspects - physically, and in terms of attire (astrakhan trim and spats notwithstanding).

I'm sure there was more than a little bit of "press-trawling" behind much of Hutchinson's story.

[Normy]

Hi Babybird67
Thanks very much for the link, I'll have a good read of that.
Not sure why I had the thought that Prater and MJK shared the same door! I think I should be less hasty to post comment in future!

Cheers.
Normy

[Jane Welland]

Hi Sam

I'm sure there was more than a little bit of "press-trawling" behind much of Hutchinson's story.

Wisdom as usual from you!

Yes, I am inclined to agree. There's a substantial element of sensationalism in the whole 'toff with mysterious package possibly Jewish' business - and also, I think, the idea that the killer must somehow have been extraordinary finds an expression in a culprit from the upper classes.

We seem still to suffer from that one today...

Best regards, Sam

Jane x