The Statement of George Hutchinson

[Bob Hinton]

Signatures

OK. Here we go. The same man probably did the 1898 and the 1911. A different man did the 1888.

The capital G’s are totally different.

With the three H’s the top H is formed by drawing two verticals, taking the pen from the paper then crossing it with a horizontal from left to right. Even with the blot in the 1888 you can see the horizontal stroke peeking through. It is even more noticeable on the second statement signature.

With the 1898 and the 1911 the H is formed entirely differently. Here the first vertical is drawn. The pen is then taken off to draw the second vertical, but then without taking the pen from the paper the line is drawn upwards to the mid position and then taken to the left to the first vertical, then looped back on itself to lead into the next letter.

On the 1888 signature the letter ‘u’ is not attached to the letter H, neither is it on the second 1888, both are drawn in the same way.

In all three 1888 signatures the horizontal stroke from the letter ‘t’ is only just attached (in fact on the third one it isn’t) but crosses the vertical on the ‘h’.

In all three 1888 signatures the vertical on the ‘h’ is a loop on the other signatures it is a single straight line.

It is for these reasons I give my opinion that the signatures marked 1898 and 1911 were not written by the man who signed the statement in 1888.

[Garry Wroe]

Two posters have now referred to the 1911 Toppy signature as having been appended to a census form. If so, would someone be so kind as to enlighten me as to when those being canvassed began signing census returns? In my experience, all information is entered by the census returns officer, with no written input whatever on the part of the informant.

Regards,

Garry Wroe.

[Bob Hinton]

Filling in your own form

Two posters have now referred to the 1911 Toppy signature as having been appended to a census form. If so, would someone be so kind as to enlighten me as to when those being canvassed began signing census returns? In my experience, all information is entered by the census returns officer, with no written input whatever on the part of the informant.

Regards,

Garry Wroe.

I believe the 1911 was the first census when you completed your own details.

[DVV]

The capital G’s are totally different.

yes Bob, so incredibly different.

Amitiés,
David

[Magpie]

Hi

What exactly are the laws regarding ones access to old police documents? And do we need permission to reproduce such police documents? I have just done a google search to no avail regarding such matters. I was led to believe that a 100 year embargo existed on viewing the documents, is this correct?

all the best

Observer

Hi Observer.

According to the Office Of Public Sector Information, people can freely copy, quote, index, transcribe, publish and broadcast the text within the police records. However that freedom does not extend to actual images of the records if those images were created by the Records Office.

From what I've read in the thread so far, the images that are being passed around behind the scenes were taken by Ms Crystal herself (someone please correct me if I've read that wrong), and therefore wouldn't appear to be considered protected

[Sam Flynn]

yes Bob, so incredibly different.

Amitiés,
David

So were my "G"s... and my "H"s, for that matter, over a similar (if not shorter) period of time - as you'll have seen when I posted them on this site. Do you think I'd run the risk of identity theft if I didn't think I had a legitimate point to make? The point being that elements of people's signatures do change, sometimes greatly, over time.

Not that a closed versus an open loop on a capital "G" (or a lower-case "h" or "l"), nor a flourish on an outlying "H" (and that only on page 1 of the 1888 signature) or an upward flick on a terminating "n" constitute that radical a change, when so much else is similar, and consistent, over a period of 23 years.

[Observer]

For what it's worth, I conducted a little experiment namely I signed my name three times at ten second intervals the results were rather interesting. The G in my Christian name which is the first letter of my christian name produced three different G's. The differences were minimal. I''ll not go into any detail regarding the differences, as I'll more than likely get tongue tied, and we don't want that do we. Thinking that the experiment might have subconciously had an effect on my experiment, and me being a Toppy fan I then asked a freind to repeat the experiment, I did not tell him the purpose of the experiment. The first letter in his christian name is A, and after he had signed three times the A was definately different in signature 1 and 3, in signature 1 the loop was not finished in the A, whereas in signatures 2 and 3, it was completed.

Have a go, it would be interesting to find out if any of you experience similar results.

all the best

Observer

[Ben]

Do you think I'd run the risk of identity theft if I didn't think I had a legitimate point to make?

Not to invalidate your comparison, Gareth, but personally speaking, I didn't find your "G"s to be appreciably different. If I was looking at those signatures with no knowledge of penmanship, I'd like to think I'd be able to discern correctly that they were written by the same person. As you know, we also disagree on whether or not the bulk of the signatures reveals any great similarity with Toppy. I don't they do, for reasons I outlined in a very early post in the 1911 thread.

Interesting observations there, Bob, particularly with regard to the differing formations of the letter "H".

All the best,
Ben

[Bob Hinton]

Comparison over time

The interesting thing about these signatures is that the wedding signature 1892 doesn't seem to have changed appreciably from the 1911, a period of approximately 2 decades. Yet the 1888 signature is appreciably different from the 1892 a period of only 4 years.

I do wish I could see the pictures Sam is posting. Perhaps he could post the same pictures here.

[Ben]

Hi Bob,

The marriage certificate was signed in 1898, but I feel your observation still stands. Toppy's signature retained a remarkable consistency from 1898 to 1911, with the differences with 1888 still in place.

Best regards,
Ben

[Brenda]

I think it is worth noting that it appears that in 1888 our writer was having a few pen problems. That "H" looks to me like a pen malfunction.

[The Good Michael]

Brenda,

Of course you may be right. The H being a little different does not detract from the remarkable similarity of the utchinsons.

Mike

[Ben]

Trouble is, there's no "remarkable similarity" when it comes to the "utchinsons" Mike. Only differences that outweigh the similarities, in my view.

Ben

[Sam Flynn]

The similarities outweigh the differences, Ben - and they ARE remarkable similarities.



No question about it.

[Ben]

Every question about it, Gareth.

As Bob observes.

As Sue Iremonger attests to.

As your montage above aptly demonstrates.

The differences outweigh the similarities.