If Topping is the witness...

[DVV]

Right, Crystal,
being a married and fertile plumber wouldn't clear him.
This said, I wouldn't look at Toppy-Hutch as suspiciously as Fleming-Hutch.
Toppy, btw, could also have shielded the murderer.

Amitiés,
David

[The Good Michael]

and working as a plumber does not automatically exempt him from suspicion.

Hold on! The plumbers are the men who will not...

Never mind.

Mike

[Malcolm X]

``the HUTCHINSONS are the men, who will not be blamed for nothing, whoever the f*** they are``

who knows who the hell he is, or what the hell was going on.......my guess is the Ripper would have to be a total idiot to go to the police, after all; all the suspect descriptions are rubbish, they wouldn't bother me that's for sure..........

Hutch either made it all up and lied ( looks like it) or he told the truth.....but without being able to question him again, there could be legitimate reasons why he got the statement so wrong...

e.g ``why did you notice his appearence so well, and why were you able to hear exactly what they both said?``...........his reply could be ``well the statement is not quite right, i was actually quite close and i was staring at him quite a lot too``...............you might then say ``why is this not mentioned in the statement?``.................his reply could be ``well i dont know, i thought it was pretty obvious that i was close, otherwise how would i be able to hear them, plus describe him so well``
``the guy i saw looked as guilty as hell, i stared right into his face and was about to tell him to clear off... but i thought ``no`` at the last second, damn it.......that was a huge mistake`` ..........because it does look like HUTCH was about to do so!....... maybe!

but i sense no guilt from HUTCHINSON in later years, only his attempts to milk it for all it's worth, because if i was HUTCH; i'd have felt very guilty indeed.``why didn't i scare him off.......why``......... this would've haunted me all my life!

my guess is....due to Abberline's later reaction, that he made it all up.

[Ben]

Hi Mal,

my guess is the Ripper would have to be a total idiot to go to the police, after all; all the suspect descriptions are rubbish

Other serial killers have approached the police under false guises, and many of them were at the more "organized" non-idiotic end of the criminal continuum. The suspect descriptions may well have been "rubbish" - Lewis' in particular - but in light of the suppression of recent descriptions at the latest inquest, he couldn't have relied on their being as rubbish as they superficially appeared to be.

Best regards,
Ben

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mal,



Other serial killers have approached the police under false guises, and many of them were at the more "organized" non-idiotic end of the criminal continuum. The suspect descriptions may well have been "rubbish" - Lewis' in particular - but in light of the suppression of recent descriptions at the latest inquest, he couldn't have relied on their being as rubbish as they superficially appeared to be.

Best regards,
Ben

hi Ben
yes this is true, if my memory servs me correctly i can think of 3; but not their names..........one of them wasn't believed by the police, he really did insert himself into the case, so much so that the police told him to get lost, so eventually he took his Mother's severed head into the police station
how sick is that!

[Malcolm X]

Hi Mal,



but in light of the suppression of recent descriptions at the latest inquest, he couldn't have relied on their being as rubbish as they superficially appeared to be.

Best regards,
Ben

i'm not so sure that's true, i'd like to read more about that, it seems to be yet more idol speculation.

[Ben]

No idle speculation here, Mal.

What I posted above were irrefutable facts.

Lawende's description was suppressed at the latest inquest, and Hutchinson could not have relied on Lewis' description being as rubbish as it superficially appeared to be.

[Malcolm X]

No idle speculation here, Mal.

What I posted above were irrefutable facts.

Lawende's description was suppressed at the latest inquest, and Hutchinson could not have relied on Lewis' description being as rubbish as it superficially appeared to be.

but the Lawende description is right isn't it ? ....that's what i mean

[Ben]

It was right, Mal, but the full extent of the description was withheld from appearing at the Eddowes inquest. Solicitor Crawford requested that Lawende's description should not be published in full.

Hope this helps.

[perrymason]

Hi all,

If Toppy was 22 in 1888...then that doesnt exclude him as the person who gave the statement Monday night at the station. But I think if this is the George that gave the statement, he is not likely Jack the Ripper.

Although more has been done in recent years to find people and verify ages by the census data, in those days ages werent always given, nor always accurate. For example, when I first read the details about Dutfields Yard, I pictured some men maybe middle aged...maybe with grey in their beards, which I assumed they would have, being the typical Socialist Jew of stereotype. Turns out the oldest person in the relevant group with respect to the Club members was only 30. Kozebrodski was only 17. When you consider that the youth within any movement is apt to be the most willing to further a cause through physical action, perhaps the Police werent hasty referring to the club as an Anarchist Club. The same men that swore to events the night of Liz's murder, events that painted them as frightened and shocked, attacked Police with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

If Toppy was the fellow that gave the statement, his age at the time only discounts his eligibility for Jack....because no witness saw someone that young as the last seen with a victim before she is murdered.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

It was right, Mal, but the full extent of the description was withheld from appearing at the Eddowes inquest. Solicitor Crawford requested that Lawende's description should not be published in full.

Hope this helps.

yes i thought it was............this suspect looks like the closest to the Ripper, but doesn't match Blotchy face at all, and definitely doesn't match Mary's LA DE DA Jew either.

the time LAWENDE saw our suspect was at 1.35..PC Watkins found Kate at 1.45....

add to 1.35 about 3 minutes more for the Ripper to kill and remove 2 minutes from 1.45 for the Ripper to escape/body to be discovered and we have 5 minutes to kill and mutilate............the timing is so tight, this LAWENDE suspect looks like the Ripper.

there are two separate descriptions of what this suspect was wearing, one on the 19th oct and the other on the 6th nov, the hat, either a grey cloth cap with a peak or a deerstalker (6th nov), clothing varies too

about 5ft 7........complexion fair, moustache fair........medium build

[Malcolm X]

Hi all,

If Toppy was 22 in 1888...then that doesnt exclude him as the person who gave the statement Monday night at the station. But I think if this is the George that gave the statement, he is not likely Jack the Ripper.

Although more has been done in recent years to find people and verify ages by the census data, in those days ages werent always given, nor always accurate. For example, when I first read the details about Dutfields Yard, I pictured some men maybe middle aged...maybe with grey in their beards, which I assumed they would have, being the typical Socialist Jew of stereotype. Turns out the oldest person in the relevant group with respect to the Club members was only 30. Kozebrodski was only 17. When you consider that the youth within any movement is apt to be the most willing to further a cause through physical action, perhaps the Police werent hasty referring to the club as an Anarchist Club. The same men that swore to events the night of Liz's murder, events that painted them as frightened and shocked, attacked Police with clubs in that same yard a few months later.

If Toppy was the fellow that gave the statement, his age at the time only discounts his eligibility for Jack....because no witness saw someone that young as the last seen with a victim before she is murdered.

Best regards all.

young yes, but did he look young! .......or did he look 28 to 30, we just dont know do we.

and did the Ripper wear the same clothing all the time, well; if he was smart then the two things that he would change are definitely his hat and definitely his jacket! .......regardless of description being held back, but how smart was the Ripper?.............no idea!

but this is quite important:- the LAWENDE suspect was red hot! ....... the police knew this, now HUTCH probably doesn't match him or he would've been detained for far longer, or re-arrested later and released if innocent...........but no.

the reason i say this is that most suspect descriptions are 50% inaccurate; but not in this case i'm afraid, HUTCH was shorter but far stockier than the LAWENDE'S suspect......as per his description from S.Lewis.

because if i'm right this blows everything out of the water...............no HUTCH, no LA DE DA and no BLOTCHY FACE!

.........mind you; this LAWENDE suspect might not be the ripper, but it aint looking too good! ............what do you think guys?

[IchabodCrane]

Malcolm,
you are absolutely right. It is probable the police didn't consider Hutchinson (whether he was Toppy or not) as a suspect because he didn't match the description given by Lawende. Because had he matched, oh boy... they would have given him a tough time,
IchabodCrane

[DVV]

If Toppy was 22 in 1888...then that doesnt exclude him as the person who gave the statement Monday night at the station. But I think if this is the George that gave the statement, he is not likely Jack the Ripper.

If Toppy was the fellow that gave the statement, his age at the time only discounts his eligibility for Jack....because no witness saw someone that young as the last seen with a victim before she is murdered.

Best regards all.

Agreed, Mike,
Toppy tends to clear Hutch, IMHO.

Amitiés mon cher,
David

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm,
you are absolutely right. It is probable the police didn't consider Hutchinson (whether he was Toppy or not) as a suspect because he didn't match the description given by Lawende. Because had he matched, oh boy... they would have given him a tough time,
IchabodCrane

yes, i read what Stewart Evans said about the police on that other thread this morning and that got me thinking, ``they weren't as useless as i once thought, in fact; quite good at their jobs``... they must've checked Hutch out carefully, especially in comparison to the Lawende suspect...definitely.

it's not HUTCH's youth....... it's what he looked like.

i dont think HUTCH is our man, for me personally; he hasn't felt right as the ripper since i've been back on this forum........Blotchy doesn't fit either, but i wouldn't say definitely because the Ripper is a confusing mess ( at the best of times) it's the biggest (famous) mystery there is.

just thinking out aloud and off topic:- what does this tell us about M.Kelly?

well we still dont know if Hutch was outside do we, or if he made it all up.

if he was outside, then LAWENDE's wasn't the ripper; but LA DE DA was, but if he wasn't OUTSIDE, then MARY went out again after BLOTCHY

or LAWENDE's (yet again) wasn't the Ripper, but Blotchy was but BLOTCHY FACE looks too short for BROADSHOULDERS

my guess is:- because Abberline dismissed HUTCH as unreliable, that MARY went out again......but her and the killer weren't seen or heard.....until 4am!

LA DE DA Jew doesn't fit any suspect, not Stride, Eddowes....because you'd expect him to be seen at least once at any of the murder sites, close by, especially close to Eddowes .........so this goes against HUTCH too.

but i've always said, that i dont think that MARY went out again , yes loads more research to do

it might be worth looking at suspects seen, that weren't too close to the murder sites; or were seen 10 or so mins before, because the Ripper might have been too crafty to be seen at the murder site, but didn't give a damn if he was seen earlier or further away........this makes sense..........especially with regards to STRIDE.