Kudzu. Alias a George Hutchinson Thread

[Sam Flynn]

Hello Richard,

however one should remember that people born in the nineteenth century that died in the first third of the twentieth century looked a lot older then they actually were because of living conditions, many had fought in two wars Boar/world war one, also the heavy styled tashes that nearly every man supported aged the face in a photograph, look at the men in the trenches many of them looking far in advance of their years.

My great-grandfather was just such a person, born in 1878, albeit he didn't fight in the Boer war and lived well into his nineties. An issue I have is that my great-grandfather looked remarkably like the man alleged to be George WT Hutchinson when he was in his late seventies/early eighties. My other problem is that there are photographs of my great-grandfather that remind me of "Toppy's" photo, but they were taken in the 1950s and 1960s. If "Toppy" was in his sixties or early seventies in that photo, then it would have to have been taken somewhere between 1926 and 1938. I dunno, but the man in the photograph just looks a little too "post-war" to me.

Edit: Ally's question about the T-shirt is interesting, too. I don't think that's a vest under his tunic.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Sam,
The problem is that photograph as i have mentioned was present in Regs flat years after the 'Ripper and the royals' was published, therefore i would very much doubt Reg would have a picture on the wall that was not his actual father, a man that by birth/death certificates was Gwt, proven father of Reg by documentation.
Therefore the argument that the picture shown may be of a later date or depicts a elder man is not possible as Gwt died in 1938 aged 71 years.
The clothing the man is wearing a double brested jacket with waistcoat was common wear for over half of the twentieth century, and allys theory on t shirt wear means nothing as it was beneath a waistcoat and therefore tucked into his pants, also Gwt was a outdoor worker and t-shirt and cords were part of the uniform.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

I don't think they were "part of the uniform" before the 40's. If they were considered underwear before that time, then men wouldn't be outside working in their underwear no matter what their profession. Tshirts did not become common usage by civilians as outerwear until after WW2 which is probably leading to Gareth's impression it is post WW2.

[richardnunweek]

Hi ,
Back to the clothing that is shown in the photograph, a T- Shirt appears to be present also a waistcoat so the gentleman complete with double brested jacket appears to be dressed respectably, my main argument is, if it is being maintained that the picture outdates 1938, then it cannot be a accurate accessment as the subject in the photo is GWT who most certainly died at the date mentioned by proven documentation,
The dress code shown by the gentleman is irrelevent, and so is the possibility that this picture was snapped at a later period, simply because of common sense.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

No not really.

You are presuming based on your BELIEF that the man is the George Hutchinson you want him to be. It is not a proven fact.

[Sam Flynn]

if it is being maintained that the picture outdates 1938, then it cannot be a accurate accessment as the subject in the photo is GWT

Not if Reg or whoever grabbed any old photo from a family album (not necessarily their own) and pretended it was GWT. Given the large amount of dubious material in Fairclough's book, this wouldn't surprise me in the least.

The dress code shown by the gentleman is irrelevent.

If someone offered me a purportedly contemporary tapestry of the Battle of Agincourt, depicting archers wearing pith-helmets or camouflage jackets, I'd think twice before buying it.

[richardnunweek]

Hi Ally,
It is not the Hutchinson I want him to be, its the only one that has presented itself to us in all our lifetimes.
It is all well and good mentioning other George hutchinsons that were living at the time as possible contenders, but none of them or desendants of them have relayed information to the media except the late Reg Hutchinson.
Let me state that i am not equipped with blinkers i do have sight to all avenues open, but for reasons that are obvious [ at least to me] Gwt is the most likely to have been the Gh who reported his observations to the police on monday 12th november, on that issue i have very little doubt.
The statement albeit strange i feel is the truth , but i would not dismiss if the wording may have been altered or some of the description by the police for reasons they may have felt necessary.
I also feel that the fee of one hundred shillings if paid to Hutchinson [ a paltry sum then] was for more help then a walkabout.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

I am willing to put aside for the moment the fact that there is absolutely no proven data that says that Reg is the descendant of THE George Hutchinson. Let's say that he was, there is still no proof that that photograph is of THE George Hutchinson.

You yourself admit that the Fairclough's book was deeply flawed, and the author has been discredited but still balk at the idea that maybe this photograph was NOT taken from Reg's wall or is not an accurate picture of his father. This is wearing blinkers. There is absolutely no proof that this is GH. I would have been more convinced by a photo of this man and Reg himself. That would have been slightly more proof that at the very least, this was his father. How about a family portrait? Lots of better ways to establish a connection than this single photo in isolation that has an anachronistic feel to it in any case.

[Ben]

It is all well and good mentioning other George hutchinsons that were living at the time as possible contenders, but none of them or desendants of them have relayed information to the media except the late Reg Hutchinson.

But Richard,

All the other George Hutchinson had connections to the area at the relevent time. Don't you think that carries more weight that uncorroborated claims in "The Ripper and the Royals"?

[richardnunweek]

Hello Sam,
As i have mentioned [ i wish i had a fiver a time] many times I heard the radio broadcast some 18years before Faircloughs book, are you suggesting that Reg was attempting to be famous on some 40 minute radio show, and tried again in 1992 by obtaining a photograph from someone elses collection, having it published in a book.
What about all the people living that rembered the late Gwt, how about them saying 'Thats not Regs old man', then someone saying thats Uncle Fred whats that doing in that book ?
Total Rubbish...
All i am saying and have said all along is i heard a Radio broadcast that lasted for approx forty minutes back around 1974, that was advertised in the radio times, that featured the story of the 'The man that saw jack' and near the completion of that airing a taped report came from Reg Hutchinson son of GWT, saying his fathers recollections, a character reference to his honesty, and ending with the words a Quote. My fathers biggest regret was dispite his efforts in assisting the police nothing came of it'
How do i remember that quote?
Mayby i have Ghs memory.
Regards Richard.

[Ally]

What "all the people" living who remembered the late GWT some 50 years later? Do you really think they all read Fairclough's book? Do you really think that because we find the minutia of Ripperology endlessly fascinating everyone does and is obsessed with the detail. Say there were people familiar enough and with excellent memories who did remember GH AND read the book, AND recognized it was the wrong photo. What exactly were those people going to do? Stage a protest outside of BBC? Or possibly, write a letter to the publisher and to the author which we probably wouldn't have heard about anyway. Yes, it's possible there are people who read the book and recognized inaccuracies. I often recognize inaccuracies in many books I read. That doesn't mean those inaccuracies make the news.

[Sam Flynn]

near the completion of that airing a taped report came from Reg Hutchinson son of GWT, saying his fathers recollections, a character reference to his honesty, and ending with the words a Quote. My fathers biggest regret was dispite his efforts in assisting the police nothing came of it'
How do i remember that quote?

I don't doubt you for one minute, Richard - it's Reg, or perhaps what became of Reg's story later, that concerns me. It pays to remember that the "family story" of Joseph Gorman "Sickert" got blown out of all proportion by the time Knight, Fairclough and others had finished with it. The books built around the nucleus of his tale contained some "amazing" photographic and documentary evidence to support his story, not all of which was independently corroborated, and much of which was seemingly pure invention.

If Reg's story contained some elements of truth - and that may well have been the case - it doesn't mean that we can take all elements of the tale at face value. Any elaboration or supporting "evidence" advanced in respect of his story in a book as fantastical as The Ripper and the Royals must be looked on with extreme caution.