Hutch in the 1911 Census?

[DVV]

Hi Crystal,

We ALL care, I think. And not only those who have posted here.
It's Hutch, it's the Miller's Court murder. It's for everybody interested in the case.

Thanks again,
David

[Crystal]

David

You're welcome: and you're right, it is Hutch.

Much, much more to come this way, my friend. Today has been most enlightening.

Cx

[Garry Wroe]

Just to point out to anyone reading this thread, Garry is sold on Hutchinson much like Ben is based upon his MINDHUNTER comparisons. Of course it is impossible from that point of view to look objectively at these signatures. Psychologists will bear this out of course.

Just a couple of points of clarification. First, I am a psychologist, Mike, and as a consequence endeavour wherever possible to apply a systematic, objective approach to any intellectual challenge that presents itself. I also happen to believe that one can disagree without being disagreeable. As is evidenced by several of your posts, however, this is not a view to which you readily subscribe.

You are clearly of the opinion that the Hutchinson and Toppy signatures are connected by a link of common authorship. If that is indeed your position, then you are, as far as I am concerned, perfectly entitled to it. Others, on the other hand, ought to be able to hold a different view without becoming the subject of innuendo and outright personal abuse.

For the record, my point on the Hutchinson/Toppy signatures is eminently straightforward and should in no way be taken as an attack on yourself or anyone else who concurs with your view on this issue. Essentially, despite the similarity between the two writing styles, the signatures are at variance in one important material respect: unlike the Hutchinson sample, the Toppy specimen contains a middle name. Given that signatures, then as now, represent the individual's personal textual identifier, they tend to remain fairly constant over extended periods of time. As such, the manifestly clear material differentiation between the two inclines me toward the view that they did not originate from a common hand. And if you disagree with me, fine. But please do not attribute this opinion to a hidden agenda predicated upon a pro-Hutchinson bias.

Garry Wroe.

[Crystal]

In fact, Toppy is listed, and appears in the 1911 Census as 'George Hutchinson Sen' (for 'Senior'). I take your point concerning full names: the practice, however, did not always accommodate the theory. It is an era in which multiple names and variant spellings abound. I know. It's a curse I live with on a daily basis.

[The Good Michael]

Garry,

I apologize for my outburst. I understood your meaning to be that the style doesn't match from your previous post. Instead of your meaning that the name as written, isn't the same. That is true, but something I thought we'd all known, hence my misunderstanding of your intent. Again, sorry about that.

Mike

[Ben]

Hi Garry,

Taking a moment to divert from the matter of signature comparisons, I'd like to endorse your observations regarding the physical particulars of George Hutchinson as depicted in the sketch you mentioned. As you are no doubt aware, there are at least two sketches depicting the alleged "Astrakhan" encounter. Since one of them is clearly inaccurate and features various other "onlookers" (including what appears to be a young girl smearing chocolate over her face!), I'm inclined to deter to the other one - the one on the "cover" of your book - as being the more likely of the two to reflect Hutchinson's true location, physique etc.

Best regards,
Ben

P.S. I meant "circumspection" and "engender" in my last post to Mike. Gotta stop this 3.00am bedtime.

[Ben]

deter

Defer! Curse it to oblivion.

And relax.

Crystal - Your efforts are both valued and appreciated, and I'm sure I'm not alone in anxiously awaiting the fruits of your generous labour.

All the best,
Ben

[Garry Wroe]

Hi Mike.

Apology gratefully accepted. And, for what it's worth, I may have written fairly extensively on Hutchinson, but have never publicly claimed that he was the Whitechapel Murderer. The evidence wasn't and still isn't strong enough to support any such claim. So feel free to offer constructive criticism any time. Thanks once again.

Evening Ben.

At one point, a number of years ago, I had a number of Hutchinson illustrations. The one to which you are alluding was published, I believe, by the Illustrated Police News shortly after the Miller's Court murder and almost certainly came about as a consequence of Hutchinson's interactions with the press on 13th and 14th November. As such, it is likely to be the most accurate representation of Hutchinson to have surfaced at the time.

Many thanks.

Garry Wroe.

[Mari]

Finally, i get to come up for some air!

Hi Everyone!
This is my first post here so go easy on me. I honestly can't believe i read all 235 pages of this thread, hoping for some definitive answers one way or another, alas i haven't found that just yet. I've seen mention before of anyone having read this whole thread of being crazy, I'm currently awaiting the guys in white lab coats as we speak.

I was hoping to have a passionate argument for or against by this point but I'm no better off having read this entire thread than i was on say page 10, perhaps my eyes no longer work.

Either way i do see similarities and differences in the signatures, wish i was as sure as some of you guys. What i really want to say though was good luck, hope there are definitive answers someday so you all who have argued for or against have some final answers, however i doubt that'll happen anytime soon. Remember though just because you're at a keyboard and looking at a monitor doesn't make the people you're responding to any less real. I'd like to see you all continue to strive for the truth no matter you're personal stances or experience in different fields. Perhaps just maybe we could all be just a little nicer.

I have no personal stance, or experience in anything that could possibly help you guys to get your answers. Good luck though in all that you do, and that is to all of you!


PS< Sorry for the long winded post. I have a tendency of just going off on long tangents.
Mari

[DVV]

Hello and welcome, Mari,

a sensible post.
Just like (some of) us, you see similarities and differences and therefore can't decide, knowing that you're no expert.
That's it!

Amitiés,
David

[babybird67]

hi Mari



nice to meet you and welcome...this was the first thread i read...despite being warned not to go near Hutch threads! By then i was already reading it!

hope you enjoy yourself here...i'm just settling in myself

tc

[Sam Flynn]

Just like (some of) us, you see similarities and differences

I see differences too, Dave, but far more in the way of consistency - and those differences I see do not strike me as being in any way significant.

and therefore can't decide, knowing that you're no expert.

No shame in that. As we've seen, some "experts" differ and, as research indicates, many "non-experts" can be pretty good at this sort of thing.

[DVV]

As we've seen, some "experts" differ and, as research indicates, many "non-experts" can be pretty good at this sort of thing.

Hi Sam,

Be sure I value your verdict. But the fact that experts differ doesn't mean they're valueless.
First, we don't know exactly what SI said, and why.
And Crystal is still at work.
Just wait and see...

Amitiés,
David

PS: Jerry Collins will leave Provence for the Ospreys...

[Mari]

Thanks

Hey everyone! Thanks for the warm welcome.


Babybird, if you haven't already you should really check out the thread East End Photographs and Drawings under the general discussion forum. It's the first thread i went through and it's wonderful.


Looking forward to Crystal's report on the signatures.


Mari

[Ben]

But the fact that experts differ doesn't mean they're valueless.

Indeed, David. Quite the contrary, as most people appear to appreciate the need for document examiners when undertaking comparisons such as these. I regard the differences to be hugely significant, certainly no less that the perceived similarities - an observation shared by Sue Iremonger who compared the signatures and arrived at the opinion that Toppy wasn't the witness.

Gosh, was that a circle we all went round in?

All the best,
Ben