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  • Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post

    Hi Simon,

    Is there a suggestion somewhere that Abberline fabricated Hutchinson's existence?
    Melville Macnaghten was impersonating Abberline. He always wanted to be a cop.

    It's in Sophie's book DeCrossianting Jack.

    Click image for larger version

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    • George Hutchinson, walking from Whitechapel Church on Whitechapel Road, up Commercial Street and as far as Dorset Street would have been hard pressed not to notice all the noise and activity. Especially when he managed to so accurately note Mr. Astrakhan's attire and bling and overhear parts of his conversations with MJK.

      The whole story is BS.
      Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

      Comment


      • Hi Paddy,

        Very funny.

        Regards,

        Simon
        Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
          There was one.... there's a hint in the topic of this thread
          Yeah the couple further up the street?

          But where is the indication that Kelly went out and brought home a client.There has to be something.If none, drunk and asleep after Blotchy.Theoretically it cannot be ruled out 100% she went out again.But practically speaking I doubt it.

          ------

          On a side note Blotchy was the only person who knew of her situation,alone,no live-in partner,drunk,asleep/half-asleep particularly that early morning.After gaining her trust, promised to return with more money and was the lurking man.
          Or as an intruder who unlocked the door before leaving and came back - meaning meeting Kelly unexpectedly/coincidentally in the first place without the knife or was casing first for an in-room victim - he was under "pressure" from police/citizens especially starting October after the double event ?

          Or a previous client/friend/acquaintance,not Blotchy,who promised to visit her at a certain time?
          Or simply Blotchy waited for things around Miller's court to calm down and killed her.

          --
          Last edited by Varqm; 08-08-2018, 11:35 AM.
          Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
          M. Pacana

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
            It's interesting to note that George Hutchinson's legendary encounter with MJK is always described as if it took place on an otherwise empty stage, whereas on the night/morning in question road gangs were at work tearing up Commercial Street to put the finishing touches to the Commercial Street Tramway, which opened on 15th November 1888.

            George Hutchinson appears to have been oblivious to all this activity.
            Do you have any more info on when the construction work was underway? I've always thought that one of the transient navvies laying the tracks was as good a shout as any to be Jack.
            Bernard Brown in his dissertatiion says that
            "During the construction Emma Smith, Martha Tabram, Mary Ann Nichols, Annie Chapman, Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were murdered. Coincidence?"

            No mention of Kelly though, so was this an oversight or did he know when the actual work on the tramway was completed? Or, as Sam suggests, was work still underway but further up the street? Dorset Street is less than half way along Commercial St, and I suspect that the length of Eastern Street as far as Old Street was also included in the line laying, so plenty of road left that might still have been being dug up.
            I don't recall any other mentions of the roadworks by any other witnesses or police either, so Hutchinson not mentioning anything is hardly unique.
            Last edited by Joshua Rogan; 08-08-2018, 12:08 PM. Reason: Correction

            Comment


            • Hi Joshua,

              Hutchinson didn't mention anything because he wasn't there.

              But over all the banging and clanging, one of the road gang was heard to shout—

              "Keep the noise down, boys, there's two people over there trying to have a quiet conversation."

              Regards,

              Simon
              Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                Hi Joshua,

                Hutchinson didn't mention anything because he wasn't there.

                But over all the banging and clanging, one of the road gang was heard to shout—

                "Keep the noise down, boys, there's two people over there trying to have a quiet conversation."

                Regards,

                Simon

                Or "Keep the noise down, boys,you are undermining Hutch as a witness"

                --
                Clearly the first human laws (way older and already established) spawned organized religion's morality - from which it's writers only copied/stole,ex. you cannot kill,rob,steal (forced, otherwise people run back to the hills,no towns).
                M. Pacana

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  Indeed, Abby, but the problem is that there are so few witnesses spread across a small number of hours during the night. Given those circumstances, how can we be sure that Kelly didn't go out again? She was desperate for money, and the rent was due, after all.

                  We had to wait some 60 years before CCTV was invented, so the only glimpses we get into Kelly's final hours are via the eyes and ears of a handful of witnesses. What Kelly got up to when there was nobody around to observe her is anyone's guess.
                  fair enough Sam
                  to me though I doubt she went out again:

                  shes already hammered with more ale in the pot.
                  possible more money in her pocket from Blotchy.
                  food in her tummy.
                  hanging out with blotchy singing to him-probably more than just the typical client-quickie.
                  Bad night with a roof over her head and warm fire.
                  looking forward to the show the next day.
                  other than hutch-no other sightings.
                  her place quiet after 1ish.

                  I just dont see it. she was in for the evening IMHO.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Varqm View Post
                    Yeah the couple further up the street?

                    But where is the indication that Kelly went out and brought home a client.There has to be something.If none, drunk and asleep after Blotchy.Theoretically it cannot be ruled out 100% she went out again.But practically speaking I doubt it.

                    ------

                    On a side note Blotchy was the only person who knew of her situation,alone,no live-in partner,drunk,asleep/half-asleep particularly that early morning.After gaining her trust, promised to return with more money and was the lurking man.
                    Or as an intruder who unlocked the door before leaving and came back - meaning meeting Kelly unexpectedly/coincidentally in the first place without the knife or was casing first for an in-room victim - he was under "pressure" from police/citizens especially starting October after the double event ?

                    Or a previous client/friend/acquaintance,not Blotchy,who promised to visit her at a certain time?
                    Or simply Blotchy waited for things around Miller's court to calm down and killed her.

                    --
                    Hi Varq
                    pretty much agree with everything except Blotchy being the waiting man.

                    First of all he had a very unique appearance-I think Abberline would have noticed if hutch looked like blotchy.

                    secondly-why leave if your blotchy and the killer? you've got her right where you want her. to leave risks all kinds of losing her.
                    But I do think he might have waited for things to calm down around the court-inside. it would explain the length of time he was seen entering with her and her murder.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                      Hi All,

                      Which of these three documents did Superintendent Arnold not sign?

                      [ATTACH]18742[/ATTACH]
                      [ATTACH]18743[/ATTACH]

                      Regards,

                      Simon

                      The middle document looks like a copy of the Hutchinson report. As the rank follows the name on both that and the third example it suggests that these were examples of Arnold signing his name. The first example looks to be in the same hand so I would conclude that all three documents bear his signature.
                      "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
                        George Hutchinson, walking from Whitechapel Church on Whitechapel Road, up Commercial Street and as far as Dorset Street would have been hard pressed not to notice all the [tramway workers'] noise and activity.
                        What reason would he have had to comment on it? Presumably everyone in the district knew about the road-works anyway, so it was hardly news, and I very much doubt that Hutchinson, or Badham, would want to clutter up his witness statement with irrelevancies like "I heard a gang of navvies cussing as I passed by Toynbee Hall".
                        Last edited by Sam Flynn; 08-08-2018, 01:32 PM.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • It would certainly have lent a degree of verisimilitude to his statement.
                          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post
                            Abberline also said that the witnesses only saw Jack from a back view.
                            That doesn't fit any suspect in the Stride case, nor in the Eddowes case. So should we throw out all those descriptions too?
                            The only sighting that comes to mind would be Mrs Long in the Chapman case.
                            She only saw that suspect from the rear, - the respectably dressed foreigner, with a deerstalker hat.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                              "If Mary roused and went out, she would have lit the half candle she had"

                              Do we know how big the candle was to begin with?
                              We don't know how big the candle was, but she bought it new on Wednesday, if I recall correctly.
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                                SAm
                                actually all the circs point to mary not going out again that night after Blotchy.
                                well other than hutches story of course. lol
                                The Press Association:
                                Although no evidence was produced at the inquest as to her having left her room after one o'clock, at which time she was heard singing, the police have obtained statements from several persons who reside in Millers Court, that she was out of her house and in Dorset street between two and three o'clock. It appears almost certain that her life was taken about the last named hour.
                                Morning Advertiser, Irish Times, Nov 14th 1888.
                                Regards, Jon S.

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