Any updates, or opinions on this witness.

[Sam Flynn]

I recall you think that "further on" means beyond Hutchinson (further on down the street). That is only your belief.

And Trevor is quite right to believe that, because "Hutchinson" forms our anchor point. The couple were "further on" than him from Lewis's viewpoint, i.e. further down Dorset Street.

"Further on" in my view means ahead of Lewis

No, it means "further on from the man I just mentioned who was looking at the entrance Miller's Court". I doesn't mean "just in front of me", "at/near the entrance to Miller's Court", nor "between me and the man I just mentioned who was looking at the entrance to Miller's Court".

Sorry if that's long-winded, but some things need to be spelt out. The couple were further down Dorset Street than Mr Widewake, as any objective reading of the evidence clearly demonstrates.

[Wickerman]

But that's just it Michael, there's no indication of friendship in Hutchison's statement that I can see. He shows no concern for Mary at all, in fact he specifically says he didn't have any concerns for her. If he was trying to paint himself as a trusted friend, he did a poor job of it. And if he was stalking anyone, it was Astrakhan Man.
Also, what makes you think he was older than Mary?

Correct Joshua, interesting that those who accuse Hutchinson feel the need to misrepresent him by fabricating details that are intended to make him look suspicious.
They cannot just stick to the script, because their arguments are then seen to be what they really are - ill conceived.

[Sam Flynn]

Correct Joshua, interesting that those who accuse Hutchinson feel the need to misrepresent him by fabricating details that are intended to make him look suspicious.

Interesting that those who want Hutchinson's story to be beyond reproach bend over backwards to turn Lewis/Kennedy into two entirely independent witnesses (who just happened to up sticks and stay with relatives in the room opposite Mary Kelly at around the same time on exactly the same night... yeah, right!). Interesting that those who want Hutchinson corroborated cling onto one erroneous newspaper report that makes it look like Lewis saw Kelly and a stranger enter Miller's Court together.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Rj the trouble with this is Mrs long did not know Annie and did not know she was an unfortunate.

Darrly - That's all very interesting, but that was not the point.

I am merely stating that it is no coincidence that Maxwell, Prater, Venturney, and Hutchinson all stated how long they had known Mary Kelly.

They did not all unilaterally decide to make a similar statement.

They seem to be responding to a standard line of inquiry. How long did you know her? Can we trust that you would be able to identify her?


Whether you wish to believe them is a side issue. Whether you chose to believe Maxwell or Hutchinson is a side issue. I am merely pointing out that this adds context to Hutchinson's claim of having known Kelly for three years that is lacking in the frivolous accusations of Abby, who wants to approach the source materials in a loosey goosey sort of way, who wishes to pretend that an acknowledgment of familiarity with a person is the same thing as a declaration of friendship.

[Abby Normal]

Friend or acquaintance, the supposition is not "false". He could and should have come forward sooner, and that's that.

exactly Sam

concisely stated and gets to the point of it. Friend, acquaintance, or even if they only had a strict client relationship-whatever-he knew her, apparently well-Three years!!!

any person with a modicum of morals would have come forward sooner.


and BTW the kennedy phantom and lewis seeing Aman and Mary fantasies-in the court even!are equally ridiculous.

[Abby Normal]

Darrly - That's all very interesting, but that was not the point.

I am merely stating that it is no coincidence that Maxwell, Prater, Venturney, and Hutchinson all stated how long they had known Mary Kelly.

They did not all unilaterally decide to make a similar statement.

They seem to be responding to a standard line of inquiry. How long did you know her? Can we trust that you would be able to identify her?


Whether you wish to believe them is a side issue. Whether you chose to believe Maxwell or Hutchinson is a side issue. I am merely pointing out that this adds context to Hutchinson's claim of having known Kelly for three years that is lacking in the frivolous accusations of Abby, who wants to approach the source materials in a loosey goosey sort of way, who wishes to pretend that an acknowledgment of familiarity with a person is the same thing as a declaration of friendship.

hey RJ
Since your apparently afraid to answer me directly and continue to misrepresent my points, do me a favor pal, and leave me out of your posts, seriously.

[Abby Normal]

Interesting that those who want Hutchinson's story to be beyond reproach bend over backwards to turn Lewis/Kennedy into two entirely independent witnesses (who just happened to up sticks and stay with relatives in the room opposite Mary Kelly at around the same time on exactly the same night... yeah, right!). Interesting that those who want Hutchinson corroborated cling onto one erroneous newspaper report that makes it look like Lewis saw Kelly and a stranger enter Miller's Court together.

well said Sam

[rjpalmer]

I've "known" my neighbor's milkman for 3 years in so far as I would be able to identify him and speak a few friendly words to him on occasion.


If the poor chap was found murdered a few hours after I had spoke to him, I would surely want to come forward and talk to the police.


But if I found myself locked out for the night and was loitering near my neighbor's property, I might well worry that the police would use this against me.


I would hope that when I DID come forward that I wouldn't immediately become a suspect by mob trying to fit me up by claiming that I and the milkman were intimate friends.

[Wickerman]

No, it means "further on from the man I just mentioned who was looking at the entrance Miller's Court". I doesn't mean "just in front of me", "at/near the entrance to Miller's Court", nor "between me and the man I just mentioned who was looking at the entrance to Miller's Court".

When a statement is made to the police, this statement is then used by the coroner to question the witness. So, Macdonald already knew the outline of Lewis's story. In her police statement she makes no mention of a couple in the street. This is why Macdonald is interested in her seeing a man opposite Millers Court, he only knew of the man.

He would ask if she saw anyone in the street.
"-- When I went in the court I saw a man opposite the Court in Dorset Street standing alone by the Lodging House. He was not tall – but stout – had on a wideawake black hat".

An obvious question then would follow..."did you see anyone else?"
"-- another young man with a woman passed along".
Clearly, the authorities are not looking for a man & woman as "Jack the Ripper", so the coroner would shift his attention back to the man, and ask, "what was the man doing?".

"-- The man standing in the street was looking up the court as if waiting for some one to come out,"

As this is the original record of what Lewis said, it is clear that she mentioned the couple within (between) two separate comments about the man. Not after, as we read in the press. So, the man standing opposite is not the 'anchor' at all.
Therefore, this "further on" does not mean beyond the man, as she also refers to the man after the couple.

Besides, in the St. James Gazette, the location of this couple is identified:
"...she saw another man and a woman near the court."

Which indicates this couple were on the same side of the street, but ahead of Lewis, ie; "further on" must mean, in front of Lewis.

Which is consistent with the most controversial line from the Daily News:
"I also saw a man and a woman who had no hat on and were the worse for drink pass up the court. "

As this is precisely what Hutchinson later would tell the police, why is it necessary to try claim Lewis saw another couple entirely?

[rjpalmer]

Abby - I'm in no way afraid of addressing you directly. I merely stopped taking you seriously long ago as anything but a cheerleader. But as you wish.

[Abby Normal]

Abby - I'm in no way afraid of addressing you directly. I merely stopped taking you seriously long ago as anything but a cheerleader. But as you wish.

now im no moderator but I do believe that is a personal attack and against site rules. lol.


but dont worry RJ I wont report you, I do so love your cute analogies with milk men.

[Sam Flynn]

As this is precisely what Hutchinson later would tell the police, why is it necessary to try claim Lewis saw another couple entirely?

The fact remains that, apart from one solitary newspaper report, no account of Lewis's testimony says that she saw anyone enter the Court. Furthermore, many (most?) accounts say that she saw the couple "further on" in the same part of her testimony that described her having seem a man standing opposite the entrance to Miller's Court; this places the couple further down Dorset Street, as some of us have (rightly) said. Finally, many accounts of her testimony have her explicitly stating that she saw no-one in Miller's Court itself. This is all consistent with her having seen the couple in the street, before she herself entered Miller's Court.

Incidentally, whether the man she saw was Hutchinson is another matter, and we needn't assume that it was he.

[Darryl Kenyon]

You write as if you are totally oblivious of the fact witnesses, even today, can be very reluctant to come forward, whether they know the victim or not.
Is this a false reality being created?

Any potential for you to admit that this can be (and, is) the case negates all what you wrote above.
Besides, does Hutchinson want to make himself a target?, "he looked at me stern", yes, this potential killer can identify me if I report him!

I am afraid we are going to have to disagree Wick. A poor woman was butchered beyond belief the latest in a series of recent murders, [heaven knows when he will stop if not caught]. A woman who the witness had known for three years who was friendly enough with the witness to know his name and asked to lend money off - And she said to me Hutchinson will you lend me sixpence. My own personal opinion is that would be enough for any reluctant witness to come forward at the first opportunity if they thought they had relevant info.

[Abby Normal]

The fact remains that, apart from one solitary newspaper report, no account of Lewis's testimony says that she saw anyone enter the Court. Furthermore, many (most?) accounts say that she saw the couple "further on" in the same part of her testimony that described her having seem a man standing opposite the entrance to Miller's Court; this places the couple further down Dorset Street, as some of us have (rightly) said. Finally, many accounts of her testimony have her explicitly stating that she saw no-one in Miller's Court itself. This is all consistent with her having seen the couple in the street, before she herself entered Miller's Court.

Incidentally, whether the man she saw was Hutchinson is another matter, and we needn't assume that it was he.

Hi Sam

The fact remains that, apart from one solitary newspaper report, no account of Lewis's testimony says that she saw anyone enter the Court. Furthermore, many (most?) accounts say that she saw the couple "further on" in the same part of her testimony that described her having seem a man standing opposite the entrance to Miller's Court; this places the couple further down Dorset Street, as some of us have (rightly) said. Finally, many accounts of her testimony have her explicitly stating that she saw no-one in Miller's Court itself. This is all consistent with her having seen the couple in the street, before she herself entered Miller's Court.

Quite right Sam

but even more obvious is that its Physically impossible for Lewis to have seen Aman and Mary in the court according to Hutchs story. Hutch follows them down dorset street, watches them talk in front of the court for a few minutes and then go into the court to marys room. then goes and takes his little vigil. Only then does sarah lewis appear and also go into the court. mary and Aman are already long gone by then.

[Sam Flynn]

its Physically impossible for Lewis to have seen Aman and Mary in the court according to Hutchs story. Hutch follows them down dorset street, watches them talk in front of the court for a few minutes and then go into the court to marys room. then goes and takes his little vigil. Only then does sarah lewis appear and also go into the court. mary and Aman are already long gone by then.

Absolutely correct, Abby.