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  • Originally posted by Simon Wood View Post
    Here's another.

    The last sentence is the most important.

    Belfast Newsletter, 14th November 1888—

    [ATTACH]18721[/ATTACH]
    Simon, the way I read it is the newspaper is comparing their recent story given by Hutchinson, to a description published the day before from an unnamed source.
    Regards, Jon S.

    Comment


    • Well, well if it ain't Ben back from the dead. I knew if anything could conjure you up it would be a Hutchinson thread.

      Nice to see you back posting again. Keep it up.

      c.d.

      Comment


      • Hi Jon,

        What’s your source for Dorset Street being 25 feet wide, please? Even if it was, the pavements themselves must have been four feet wide, and if both parties were walking relatively centrally to these (as opposed to encasing themselves into the neighbouring walls), we’re left with a distance not nearly as great as 25 feet between wideawake and Lewis.

        “So, he certainly did not avoid any risks associated with being recognised”
        He would have done, insofar as coming forward voluntarily and posing as a witness was more likely than not to succeed as as subterfuge strategy, accepting that knowledge of criminal psychology (and organised policing itself) was in its infancy at the time.

        If you think I’m “bluffing” on the subject of the early morning time of death being covered more extensively that the later version, I invite you to call me on it, and we can have a nice old dredge-up of all the examples I provided on the Red Handkerchief thread.

        The place where Hutchinson slept - most assuredly the Victoria Home as previously discussed (and good spot, Joshua!) - was indeed “closed” to anyone who had not purchased a bed-ticket prior to 1.00am. Why are you adding a “here” to Joshua’s verbatim quote from Hutchinson’s press account. He said “I came in as soon as it opened in the morning”, referring to his usual lodgings, the Victoria Home.

        All the best,
        Ben
        Last edited by Ben; 07-18-2018, 03:50 PM.

        Comment


        • Good to see you too, c.d.!

          Yeah, couldn’t quite resist the itch this time.

          Jon’s fault!

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            So why do you think 'peaked-cap' man was the Ripper?
            Aren't you in the same position?
            No. Just the opposite in fact.

            Peaked cap man made an impression on Abberline as a viable suspect so much that hes mentioning him many years later.

            Hutch and his aman... not so much.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • Hi Jon,

              Of course.

              Hutchinson and the unnamed source were one and the same person.

              Hutchinson corroborated his own story.

              Regards,

              Simon
              Last edited by Simon Wood; 07-18-2018, 04:17 PM. Reason: spolling mistook

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Ben View Post
                Hi Jon,

                What’s your source for Dorset Street being 25 feet wide, please?
                Goads Plan.
                Commercial St. is 82 ft wide, Dorset St. 25 ft wide.




                He would have done, insofar as coming forward voluntarily and posing as a witness was more likely than not to succeed as as subterfuge strategy, accepting that knowledge of criminal psychology (and organised policing itself) was in its infancy at the time.
                It isn't true that waiting for the inquest to finish will avoid him being questioned, or identified by another witness (Lewis). Abberline has the right & the ability to put him in a line-up if he thinks the guy could be the killer. He was interrogated after all, which is a more searching enquiry than what a Coroner needs to know.

                If you think I’m “bluffing” on the subject of the early morning time of death being covered more extensively that the later version, I invite you to call me on it,
                I thought I did.
                Have you included all the London papers in the BNA?

                Why are you adding a “here” to Joshua’s verbatim quote from Hutchinson’s press account. He said “I came in as soon as it opened in the morning”, referring to his usual lodgings, the Victoria Home.
                "Here", is the context. Which differentiates his current abode from the "place where he usually slept".
                Regards, Jon S.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                  No. Just the opposite in fact.

                  Peaked cap man made an impression on Abberline as a viable suspect so much that hes mentioning him many years later.

                  Hutch and his aman... not so much.
                  So, are you saying:
                  "They, however, state that they only saw his back",

                  is wrong?

                  If peaked-cap man was the Ripper, but the Ripper was only ever seen from the rear. Then which witness only saw Peaked-cap man from the rear?
                  It wasn't Lawende, it wasn't Schwartz, so who?
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Caz,in reply to your post 397.
                    It goes without arguement that Hutchinson was the person claiming he could identify the man.

                    It goes without arguement,that the phrase,"Can be identified",was used by either Hutchinson or Badham.Hutchinson orally, Badham in wriiten form.


                    There is no evidence that either one of them did not understand the meaning of the Phrase.So I ask you again,why a need for change?

                    Brevity,or shorthand will not suffice,unles you can prove that (1) it was police practice to do such changes,or(2)it was a concious decision by Badham for some reason you or Jon have not disclosed.


                    Some years ago a study was conducted in England as to the amount of misconduct by police in the taking and reporting of witness statements,and interrogation procedures.The findings were that five per cent were found to be corrupt,or not in accordance with law.95% showed honesty and compliance with both the law and police directives.

                    I see no reason why things would be different in 1888.

                    Comment


                    • Jon,
                      Your wife must be a wonderful woman.I bet she can also remember the colour of the maids eyes in those hotels.What about yourself?

                      Myself I spent about half an hour yesterday,talking to a new arrival in the retirement village in which I reside,and do you know I remember next to nothing as regards the clothes he was wearing,or what shoes he was wearing,
                      but one thing I do know,he,"can be identified".

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by harry View Post
                        Some years ago a study was conducted in England as to the amount of misconduct by police in the taking and reporting of witness statements,and interrogation procedures.The findings were that five per cent were found to be corrupt,or not in accordance with law.95% showed honesty and compliance with both the law and police directives.
                        Have known some high ranking police here in Victoria,including a Superintendent/Drug Squad Chief.
                        One cousin was lost in the line of duty.
                        One niece/God daughter in NSW spent many years as an Academy instructor.
                        Due to a flatmate leaving his law books on the cocktail bar,I'm very familiar with police procedures.Some of the legal tricks were quite underhanded.

                        An ex undercover operative ranked 30% of police corrupt and many of the remainder incompetent.

                        I have nothing against police,however am aware of the ratio.
                        Fortunately, the nearest decent sized town has a teaching police station and the constables are on the ball. Polite and to the point.
                        My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

                        Comment


                        • Hi Jon,

                          Many thanks for the Goad map information.

                          Abberline has the right & the ability to put him in a line-up if he thinks the guy could be the killer.”
                          Of course he had, but Hutchinson’s act of coming forward, preemptively and in the guise of a witness, significantly reduced the threat of Abberline exercising that right or ability, since he was unlikely in the extreme to consider the possibility of the actual killer seeking an audience with the police.

                          We discussed the late morning versus early morning times of death for Kelly on a previous mega-thread. I would refer you there.

                          There is not so much as a hint of suggestion that Hutchinson’s “current abode” differed in any way from “the place where (he) usually slept”.

                          I think we can allow for some degree for confusion regarding Abberline’s 1903 “peaked cap” recollections. He was clearly referencing either Lawende or Schwartz, but perhaps had become hazy over details in the intervening years.

                          Infinitely more understandable than forgetting all about the star witness of the case, who indisputably alleged a close front view of the suspect, and whose description would have been so useful in establishing a potential link with surly, foreign dark-moustachioed Klosowski.

                          Too bad for Abberline that the discrediting of Hutchinson’s account ensured that the latter could not be wheeled out in support of his latest organ-harvester-for-cash theory.

                          All the best,
                          Ben
                          Last edited by Ben; 07-19-2018, 02:11 AM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by harry View Post
                            It goes without arguement,that the phrase,"Can be identified",was used by either Hutchinson or Badham.Hutchinson orally, Badham in wriiten form.
                            I don't think it follows that Hutchinson used those very words. Bear in mind that this was right at the end of the statement, and preceded by the equally pithy words "Jewish appearance". Nobody, I'd suggest, would say "Jewish appearance" and leave it at that, anymore than they'd say "Can be identified" in normal speech. What probably happened was that Hutchinson said something fuller (e.g. "He looked Jewish, and I think I'd know him if I saw him again") and Badham summarised it without changing Hutchinson's essential meaning in any way. It was a long and detailed statement, so perhaps Badham was running out of steam - or even ink! - by this point; all the more reason to abbreviate.
                            Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                            "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                            Comment


                            • Dave,
                              In 1970 I served for 3 months in Melbourne, in what was then the Australian Federal Narcotics Bureau.Some of the best agents there were former Victorian police officers for whom I had the highest respect.While they too admitted to some corruption within the State police,and the need to be careful in any dealings with them, I never felt that corruption was a big problem.

                              Also,growing up in England I had the impression that police there could be trusted, were honest,and though sometimes a little too officious,seldom did they overstep the mark of official practices.


                              One funny event occurred while I was interrogating a suspect aboard a vessel berthed in Melbourne docks.He became obsessed that I was the commissioner for police of Victoria,and no amount of persuasion could convince him otherwise.I suppose I should have felt flattered,but my superiors ignored my pleas,that on his evidence,I deserved higher pay,and a promotion.

                              The best,

                              Or should that be,"I wish you good night and happy dreams".See how these arguments affect a person.

                              Comment


                              • Sam,
                                Equally it could have been Hutchinson running out of steam,and abbreviating a comment.Like wise, how many other phrases and sentences,could have been shortened,but were not.Why just the one? Even Aberline accepted it,and passed it on as written. What he thought is not mentioned,but I would suppose had he believed a substitution had been made,he would have had a notation to that effect added.

                                Comment

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