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  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
    And, in the press, all over that first weekend the vast majority of newspaper stories reported the Maxwell/Lewis evidence as significant. Some even going so far as to announce the murder took place after 9:00 am Friday morning.

    Hutchinson only saw Kelly 6-7 hours before that, so obviously in his mind what he saw had nothing to do with a murder that took place after 9:00 am.
    Reason enough for him not bothering to come forward.
    Stories like those of "Mrs Kennedy" were circulating on the streets in the popular press as early as 10th November, which reported cries of murder around about two o'clock, around the same time as Hutch claimed to have seen Kelly enter her room with a man.

    There may have been conflicting stories like Maurice Lewis's, often in the same papers, but the time of death was by no means established as 9AM or later. Hutchinson allegedly had made a definite had a sighting of whom he claimed to be a friend on the morning of her death, in the company of a strange man, in both senses of the word. There is no way that he would not have felt that this might have been of interest, if not importance, to the police.

    I'm sorry, but the alternative doesn't cut any ice: "My pretty friend was murdered hours after I last saw her with a really creepy guy carrying a mysterious elongated parcel with a leather strap, so I won't bother telling the police about it". No way, José.
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • To me, the very existance of this thread amply demonstrates why a person would hesitate before coming forward and contacting the police.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        Stories like those of "Mrs Kennedy" were circulating on the streets in the popular press as early as 10th November, which reported cries of murder around about two o'clock, around the same time as Hutch claimed to have seen Kelly enter her room with a man.
        But Gareth, this is one story, not "stories".
        Prater spoke to the press, she told them she heard nothing over night.
        So, what impact does one story have when the vast majority of newspaper stories claim a murder after 9:00 am?
        Taken together, doesn't this suggest Mrs Kennedy's "cry of murder" was just another false alarm, like so many witnesses believed?
        Take the weight of the evidence Gareth, not one isolated case.

        There may have been conflicting stories like Maurice Lewis's, often in the same papers, but the time of death was by no means established as 9AM or later.
        I said "reported", you say "established" - why is that?

        It was widely reported Kelly was seen alive and well on the streets Friday morning. How does that compare with one "cry of murder" claim by one witness?
        Especially, when it was common knowledge a "cry of murder" was just another way of drawing attention to some lesser crime.


        Hutchinson allegedly had made a definite had a sighting of whom he claimed to be a friend on the morning of her death,....
        Please show me where Hutchinson claims Kelly was a friend?

        Are you suggesting they were "friends" in order to make his failure to come forward more suspicious?
        I suspect so, especially when you & I both know he never claimed she was a friend.

        Think of how many people you know, and have known for years, yet how many could you call "a friend"?
        "Occasionally, giving her a few shillings....", is only to be expected - she was a prostitute, not a friend.

        Knowing someone, and being a friend, are not the same.
        Regards, Jon S.

        Comment


        • How did Sarah Lewis morph into the much publicised Mrs Kennedy and morph back again in time for the inquest?
          Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
            We have no idea the level of lighting, but Abberline did. So you choosing to argue that Hutch needed some special ability really exposes a level of bias.
            Plenty of people have an eye for detail, you know it & I know it so pretending this must be another special ability does little to bolster your argument.
            So long as his detailed description passed muster with professionals like Abberline & Stewart Evans, unprofessional opinions to the contrary are of little value.
            I would say I'm in good company.
            You are. There is also no escaping Abberline's written observation that he was "of opinion his (Hutchinson's) statement is true". (I know there is speculation that he later changed his mind but, if he did, he left no written record of it that we know of).

            Abberline knew the area well and must have known the lighting conditions far better that we ever can. They did not prevent him from finding the account credible. I'm another (admittedly less illustrious) professional who takes the view that Hutchinson's account cannot be discredited on the basis that he noted details in adverse lighting conditions. He may have had his own good reasons for doing exactly that - and for waiting around for as long as he did.
            "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
              You are. There is also no escaping Abberline's written observation that he was "of opinion his (Hutchinson's) statement is true". (I know there is speculation that he later changed his mind but, if he did, he left no written record of it that we know of).

              Abberline knew the area well and must have known the lighting conditions far better that we ever can. They did not prevent him from finding the account credible. I'm another (admittedly less illustrious) professional who takes the view that Hutchinson's account cannot be discredited on the basis that he noted details in adverse lighting conditions. He may have had his own good reasons for doing exactly that - and for waiting around for as long as he did.
              and yet nary a peep from Abberline again about hutch. eventhough his favored suspect, chapman, resembled Hutchs suspect Aman, down to curly mustache and peaked cap. and this from when Abberline was going on extensively in the Pall mall interview about the ripper, his appearance, his ideas on it, and suspects/witnesses.
              "Is all that we see or seem
              but a dream within a dream?"

              -Edgar Allan Poe


              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

              -Frederick G. Abberline

              Comment


              • I just cant get over the idea of hutch, after getting snubbed by Mary, lurking outside her place in the middle of the night near possible time of death.


                and apparently so obsessed by her, that even his body language, as if waiting, watching for someone up the court was even so obvious to a passerby.


                I mean dosnt that strike you? made the hair stand up the moment i heard of it.
                "Is all that we see or seem
                but a dream within a dream?"

                -Edgar Allan Poe


                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                -Frederick G. Abberline

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                  But Gareth, this is one story, not "stories".
                  As the Star of 10th Nov reported, several people were passing off stories as their own, so this stuff must have been circulating in different variants around the neighbourhood, with "Chinese Whispers" (or "Telephone Game" for our US friends) turning these into still more variant forms. Gossip is a many-headed hydra.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    I just cant get over the idea of hutch, after getting snubbed by Mary, lurking outside her place in the middle of the night near possible time of death.


                    and apparently so obsessed by her, that even his body language, as if waiting, watching for someone up the court was even so obvious to a passerby.


                    I mean dosnt that strike you? made the hair stand up the moment i heard of it.
                    How do we know he was obsessed with her? What 'body language' are you alluding to? Who was he waiting for? MJK? She had no real reason to go back out. The details Hutchinson noted included his valuables - thick gold chain, stone pendant, horseshoe pin - i.e. the fact that he was, or appeared to be, prosperous. I think it possible he hoped to relieve A-Man of these items when he emerged.
                    "It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins twisting facts to suit theories instead of theories to suit facts." Sir Arthur Conan Doyle (as Sherlock Holmes).

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Bridewell View Post
                      How do we know he was obsessed with her? What 'body language' are you alluding to? Who was he waiting for? MJK? She had no real reason to go back out. The details Hutchinson noted included his valuables - thick gold chain, stone pendant, horseshoe pin - i.e. the fact that he was, or appeared to be, prosperous. I think it possible he hoped to relieve A-Man of these items when he emerged.
                      That's as much if not more, speculation regarding Hutch than anything else, is it not?
                      "Is all that we see or seem
                      but a dream within a dream?"

                      -Edgar Allan Poe


                      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                      -Frederick G. Abberline

                      Comment


                      • Daily News - 10 Nov - That last expression, however, suggests the question as to when the deed could have been done. Strictly speaking, the only answer to this is that nobody knows. The only things that seem tolerably certain are that at half past ten on Thursday night she was alive and that at 11 o'clock yesterday she was found most foully murdered.
                        Times 10 Nov - None of those living at the court or at 26 Dorset-street, saw anything of the unfortunate creature after about 8 o'clock on Thursday evening, but she was seen in Commercial-street, shortly before the closing of the public-house, and then had the appearance of being the worse for drink. About 1 o'clock yesterday morning a person living in the court opposite to the room occupied by the woman heard her singing the song "Sweet Violets," but this person is unable to say whether any one else was with her at that time. Nothing more was seen or heard of her until her dead body was found.
                        Pall Mall Gazette 10 Nov - If the following statement can be confirmed, it has a very important bearing upon the question, who is the murderer? because it fixed approximately the time at which the murder was committed. But so many stories have been invented for the sake of gain by the people who live in the locality since these murders became the sensation in the newspaper that it is difficult to ascertain whether they are accurate or otherwise. However, here is the latest statement, and it is given on the authority of the Central News

                        Yes, the last report says it is given on the authority of the central news but surely there is enough ambiguity in these reports to suggest that the police were exploring all avenues to suggest when Mary could have died and not fixed on 9 am. Hutchinson would know his sighting was of the upmost importance.

                        Comment


                        • "Yes, the last report says it is given on the authority of the central news but surely there is enough ambiguity in these reports to suggest that the police were exploring all avenues to suggest when Mary could have died and not fixed on 9 am. Hutchinson would know his sighting was of the upmost importance."

                          This is why I started the "If Mrs. Maxwell didn't see Mary Who Did She See" thread. Although it got a fair number of responses they didn't really respond to my original question which was how hard could it have been for the police to find the woman she believed to be Mary. They might have pursued this avenue of inquiry but we don't seem to have a record of it.

                          c.d.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                            I just cant get over the idea of hutch, after getting snubbed by Mary, lurking outside her place in the middle of the night near possible time of death.


                            and apparently so obsessed by her, that even his body language, as if waiting, watching for someone up the court was even so obvious to a passerby.


                            I mean dosnt that strike you? made the hair stand up the moment i heard of it.
                            Hello Abby,

                            It makes perfect sense to me if he wanted a place to spend the night and perhaps a free role in the hay. Especially if Mary said I have a customer coming by shortly but I don't know if he is here for a quick one or wants to spend the night and indicated to him that if the customer only wanted a quick one then Hutch was free to spend the night. This would explain his waiting as well as his peering in at the customer as a possible way of intimidating him into thinking Hutch was her pimp and that he was not really welcome here.

                            c.d.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                              Hi Caz'good post and pretty much agree with everything you say except:



                              He was there, he engaged in stalking behavior, he has an unbeleivable suspect/story, he waits till the inquest is over to come forward. he has no alibi. His jewish suspect is the only jewish implication/evidence other than the night of the double event-hes the only witness to dirctly implicate a jew.


                              Is it really so crazy a theory that hutch as the ripper, knows mary,even casually as someone who lives in the immediate area and knows prostitutes, maybe even has heard she is recently single (hes staying a stones throw away in the victoria house) and is keeping an eye out for her. maybe goes by her place? shes occupied, so he waits a while. leaves, comes back to find her guest is gone-you know the rest.

                              later worries he may have been spotted-so comes forward as a witness-better than being sought out as a suspect. And runs with the jewish suspect angle?


                              It all ties together logically for me.


                              yes Abberline apparently beleived him. But..but. He "interogates" him so perhaps there is initial suspician. but is hoodwinked by the hope that hutch can be a stellar witness that helps him catch the ripper. and then not much later the accounts that hutch is discredited.
                              Abberline wouldnt be the first good cop who has been fooled by a criminal-they tend to be good liars.


                              anyway its enough for me to think hutch is a the best of a bad bunch of suspects.
                              Hello Abby,

                              Very hard to believe that a veteran detective like Abberline didn't harbor at least initial suspicion of Hutch and his story. But Abberline was not acting in a vacuum. His superiors and others at Scotland Yard surely must have been involved as well. Even if Abberline had been completely duped you would think at least one person higher up would have said "hey Fred, can you believe the B.S this Hutchinson guy is throwing out?"

                              As I have said previously, the more suspicion you can throw at Hutchinson the dumber the police would have to have been to not pick up on it and act accordingly.

                              c.d.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                                As the Star of 10th Nov reported, several people were passing off stories as their own, so this stuff must have been circulating in different variants around the neighbourhood, with "Chinese Whispers" (or "Telephone Game" for our US friends) turning these into still more variant forms. Gossip is a many-headed hydra.
                                Gareth, I find it very noticeable that you did not refer to the subsequent dismissal of those "stories"...

                                "This story soon became popular, until at last half a dozen women were retailing it as their own personal experience. Each story contradicted the others with respect to the time at which the cry was heard. A Star reporter who inquired into the matter extracted from one of the women the confession that the story was, as far as she was concerned, a fabrication; and he came to the conclusion that it was to be disregarded."

                                Which means, there were no legitimate stories, only what Mrs Kennedy said. She was the only source, the only witness who spoke about the cry of murder. The other stories were dismissed.
                                You previously mentioned the story of women "passing stories off as their own", yet that story placed the cry of murder at 2:00. Where was Hutchinson at 2:00?, just meeting Kelly in Commercial St.
                                So he would know that was not true.

                                The Star also provided a paragraph on the stories by Maxwell & M.Lewis, that Kelly was seen alive at 8:00 and 10 o'clock Friday morning. This report was far more widely published over the weekend. Even on Monday morning one London paper announced, "The murder committed after 9 o'clock".
                                Regards, Jon S.

                                Comment

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