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  • Originally posted by DJA View Post
    I'm in no hurry
    Good, then you can look things up yourself, and not just in Senise either. Casebook'Press Reports archive is your friend
    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

    Comment


    • Not wasting my time looking for the non existent.
      My name is Dave. You cannot reach me through Debs email account

      Comment


      • Originally posted by DJA View Post
        Not wasting my time looking for the non existent.
        How do you know it's non-existent without looking?
        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

        Comment


        • Jon,
          Nowhere in your description of a grooms occupation have you established a need or a qualification of a superior use of memory function equal to that exhibited by Hutchinson.Not as to detail.Nor is your argument on the use of notebooks of any value,as Hutchinson is not known to have recorded anything in written form,or was reading from a written acount.

          Nor was Sarah Lewis reported as saying Hutchigson was watching a couple.
          Her observation of him was that he appeared to be looking up the court.Just that.You have been told consistently,that Kelly and Aman,according to Hutchinson,passed up the court well before the 2.30 appearance of Lewis.She cannot give a description of Aman,because she did not see him.

          Now to your post 215.
          Are you suggesting that the description attributed to Hutchinson was in fact suggested by or scripted by Badham,and was not a true account.

          Your words.In fact that whole paragraph of description detail will belong to Badham.It is given there in typical police format.So what in your opinion Jon,did Hutchinson really report?

          Comment


          • Whether or not "Astrakan" was specifically mentioned prior to the 12th or not, the figure in the story given by Lewis/Kennedy is the ONLY thing that belief in Hutchinson can use as support. What was seen by said Wideawake, what was heard by said Wideawake and what was done by said Wideawake can only be speculated upon.

            Hes a tangent, that's all.
            Michael Richards

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
              How do you know it's non-existent without looking?
              I've looked. This argument is not new. Sally Gerard(?) tried to push the same theory several years ago. It failed then too because the claim is bogus.
              Thee most damming detail to assign to a would-be Ripper would be the 'black bag', Astrachan wasn't given one - oops!
              Regards, Jon S.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                Agreed.
                That is the problem.

                There is the possibility that Hutchinson used Sarah Lewis' testimony as a template for inventing A man in company with Mary Kelly.
                life is kopasetic in K-town, dave, how's life down under?

                Had "American cloth" been used in descriptions of the ripper prior to Hutchinson's? It seemed like a curious mention when Hutch could have easily got away with just using "parcel" or playing off the "black bag". What gets me is how the cloth might refer to waterproof material, which may have been handy when dealing with blood or concealing a removed organ.
                there,s nothing new, only the unexplored

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                  He didn't need Sarah Lewis' testimony, only the jungle grapevine, which would have been buzzing long before the Kelly inquest, and elements of the Mr Astrakhan description had appeared in the press, and on the streets, long before Kelly's murder.
                  Can you provide some of this 'grapevine'?
                  I notice you say "would have been", so you are not sure?

                  I suspect you are creating a fictional scenario that simply will not work.
                  Have you tried standing outside a court and pestering the witnesses as they come out to try piece together a story?



                  It's easy to invent these scenario's, but when it comes down to demonstrating how it is supposed to work......
                  The truth is the idea is totally impractical. Ben tried this argument more than once.
                  Regards, Jon S.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                    Can you provide some of this 'grapevine'?
                    I notice you say "would have been", so you are not sure?

                    I suspect you are creating a fictional scenario that simply will not work.
                    Have you tried standing outside a court and pestering the witnesses as they come out to try piece together a story?



                    It's easy to invent these scenario's, but when it comes down to demonstrating how it is supposed to work......
                    The truth is the idea is totally impractical. Ben tried this argument more than once.
                    not so sure about that wick

                    Hutch could have seen the bethnal green botherer himself that night, and or heard rumors, but as I think sams main point was-made him up from the bits he heard about in the press on other suspects.
                    Last edited by Abby Normal; 07-12-2018, 11:42 AM.
                    "Is all that we see or seem
                    but a dream within a dream?"

                    -Edgar Allan Poe


                    "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                    quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                    -Frederick G. Abberline

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by DJA View Post
                      Agreed.
                      That is the problem.

                      There is the possibility that Hutchinson used Sarah Lewis' testimony as a template for inventing A man in company with Mary Kelly.
                      Wouldn't he need to know who the woman was first?
                      Where does the name "Sarah Lewis" come from?

                      Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage. She is not a resident, so how does he go about identifying her without causing suspicion?
                      And why should he, was he also concerned about the man he saw enter the lodging-house?
                      The man could have gone to the police, and they might believe a man over a woman.
                      Regards, Jon S.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                        Wouldn't he need to know who the woman was first?
                        Where does the name "Sarah Lewis" come from?

                        Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage. She is not a resident, so how does he go about identifying her without causing suspicion?
                        And why should he, was he also concerned about the man he saw enter the lodging-house?
                        The man could have gone to the police, and they might believe a man over a woman.
                        wicker!

                        [QUOTE]Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage.
                        QUOTE]


                        this isn't how it happened and you know it!
                        "Is all that we see or seem
                        but a dream within a dream?"

                        -Edgar Allan Poe


                        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                        -Frederick G. Abberline

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                          not so sure about that wick

                          Hutch could have seen the bethnal green botherer himself that night, and or heard rumors, but as I think sams main point was-made him up from the bits he heard about in the press on other suspects.
                          Yes Abby, but there were legitimate suspect descriptions available, he had no need to make one up.
                          Your favorite 'peaked-cap' man for instance. All three of the Double-event suspects were published in the Daily Telegraph on the 12th. The PC Smith suspect, Broad-shouldered man, & your guy.

                          Why create something completely out of the ordinary like Astrachan?
                          Regards, Jon S.

                          Comment


                          • [QUOTE=Abby Normal;452044]wicker!

                            Hutch is standing in Dorset St. and this woman following on behind Kelly & Astrachan walks up the passage.
                            QUOTE]


                            this isn't how it happened and you know it!
                            That is was Lewis said, and I do know it.
                            Regards, Jon S.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Wickerman View Post
                              Yes Abby, but there were legitimate suspect descriptions available, he had no need to make one up.
                              Your favorite 'peaked-cap' man for instance. All three of the Double-event suspects were published in the Daily Telegraph on the 12th. The PC Smith suspect, Broad-shouldered man, & your guy.

                              Why create something completely out of the ordinary like Astrachan?
                              well since you've referenced my much beloved peaked cap man Im going to completely agree with you! : )
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • Hi folks, today we are playing a new game of 'Conflicting Witness Statements."

                                Today's contestant is Sarah Lewis—

                                "Where are you from, Sarah?"

                                "34 Great Pearl Street."

                                "Wonderful, wonderful. Are you ready to play?"

                                "Yes."

                                9th November 1888

                                "Between 2 and 3 o’clock this morning I came to stop with the Keylers, at No 2 Millers Court . . . when I came up the Court there was a man standing over against the lodging house on the opposite side in Dorset Street [‘‘talking to a female” — deleted] but I cannot describe him."

                                12th November 1888

                                "When I went into the court, opposite the lodging-house I saw a man with a wideawake. There was no one talking to him. He was a stout-looking man, and not very tall. The hat was black. I did not take any notice of his clothes. The man was looking up the court; he seemed to be waiting or looking for some one. Further on there was a man and woman - the latter being in drink. There was nobody in the court."
                                Never believe anything until it has been officially denied.

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