Any updates, or opinions on this witness.

[Simon Wood]

Thanks Jon,

Small wonder PCs Mizen, Neill and Thain were so accurate in their timing.

Regards,

Simon

[harry]

How often did the normal inhabitants use that type of descriptions for different periods of the day?

[Darryl Kenyon]

This is Dorset St., over 250 beds for dossers, round-the-clock scuffles & street fights, unfortunates coming and going, lodging-houses open till 4:00 am, not forgetting Cox came in at 3:00.
And we are supposed to accept that not a single person was seen in this street from 2:00 till 3:00 am?

No.

This is one of the troubles I have with Hutchinson though Wick.
He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap around it.
dress long dark coat.
Wore a very thick gold chain.
Here is a man walking around in all his finery in one of the roughest areas of London in the middle of the night. Making no attempt to hide the parcel, could he have not put it in a pocket in his long dark coat?
Admittedly it may not have been of any value but the thick gold chain probably was, or at least appeared to be. Yet no attempt to button his jacket up and hide it. You wouldn't walk round in the middle of the night in a rough area with your expensive mobile in your hand these days. I am sure the same principal applied back then.

[Wickerman]

The issue of "afternoon/evening" appears at least twice in the Whitechapel Murders.

First as I already mentioned with Bowyer's Wednesday afternoon/evening sighting of Kelly in the Court. But also earlier when Eddowes was arrested by PC Robinson at 8:30 Saturday evening.
John Kelly told the court:
"I heard she had been locked up at Bishopsgate-street on Saturday afternoon. An old woman who works in the lane told me she saw her in the hands of the police."

http://www.casebook.org/official_documents/inquests/inquest_eddowes.html

It barely took me five minutes to find many examples in the BNA archive of newspapers from 1800-1899 where "afternoon" was used to describe an hour that we would normally refer to as "evening".
I only saved nine of them which I already posted when this this issue came up a year or two ago.

[Wickerman]

This is one of the troubles I have with Hutchinson though Wick.
He also had a kind of a small parcel in his left hand with a kind of strap around it.
dress long dark coat.
Wore a very thick gold chain.
Here is a man walking around in all his finery in one of the roughest areas of London in the middle of the night. Making no attempt to hide the parcel, could he have not put it in a pocket in his long dark coat?
Admittedly it may not have been of any value but the thick gold chain probably was, or at least appeared to be. Yet no attempt to button his jacket up and hide it. You wouldn't walk round in the middle of the night in a rough area with your expensive mobile in your hand these days. I am sure the same principal applied back then.

Darryl, we are merely distant observers. What people did in those days, in those streets, might be questionable to us in a safety conscious society.
Robbery, muggings & street-theft did occur. If people didn't wear such finery then there wouldn't have been anything to rob, mug or thieve.
Wealthy Jewish businesses existed in the area, there was a theater just around the corner. Some 'West-enders' would go slumming in the East End, dressed in their relative finery. It is also human nature to think "it'll not happen to me".

Much of the criticism raised against Hutchinson stems from theorists imposing our modern views on events that occurred in a different time & place, over a century ago.

[Sam Flynn]

Making no attempt to hide the parcel, could he have not put it in a pocket in his long dark coat?

If for no other than practical reasons. Why "waste" a hand carrying a thin parcel around when, presumably, one's long dark coat came with a pair of handy long, dark pockets.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

What makes you think John Kelly got his afternoons and evenings mixed up?

Frederick Wilkinson, lodging house deputy, told the inquest that when Kelly came in to pay for his single bed on Saturday night between 7.30 and 8.00 pm, he said he had heard Eddowes had been locked up.

This was nothing short of clairvoyance.

Catherine Eddowes was not arrested until “about half-past 8 o’clock . . . [and] brought to Bishopsgate police station at 8.45 pm.”

Regards,

Simon

[DJA]

Have a look at the scenario for the double event.

Stride is at 32 Flower and Dean.
Elizabeth Tanner thinks she usually resides in Fashion Street.
They had drinks at 6.30 pm,returned to number 32 and Stride went into the kitchen.

Incidentally Kidney was living at 38 Dorset Street.

Eddowes was arrested at 8.30 pm. She had already attracted a crowd.
She gave her name as Mary Ann Kelly,6 Fashion Street.

Strongly suspect Stride and Eddowes planned to meet and that Stride sent word to 55 Flower and Dean.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

What makes you think John Kelly got his afternoons and evenings mixed up?

Frederick Wilkinson, lodging house deputy, told the inquest that when Kelly came in to pay for his single bed on Saturday night between 7.30 and 8.00 pm, he said he had heard Eddowes had been locked up.

This was nothing short of clairvoyance.

Catherine Eddowes was not arrested until “about half-past 8 o’clock . . . [and] brought to Bishopsgate police station at 8.45 pm.”

Regards,

Simon

Yes, Simon. What we find if we analyze John Kelly's testimony is he learned Kate had been arrested for drinking, and as was the custom he knew she would be held until 1:00 am.
Kate cannot have been arrested for drinking twice, and taken to Bishopsgate Station twice, yet only released once, at 1:00 am.

"I heard she was locked up at Bishopsgate Police Station. This was told me by an old woman whom I know, who said she had seen the deceased being led along Houndsditch by two policemen. I made no inquiries, as I believed she would be released on Sunday morning, in accordance with the City rule. I was told she was locked up for having a drop of drink."
Daily News, 5 Oct. 1888.

We know PC Robinson arrested her at 8:30 pm.

If Kelly told Wilkinson that Kate was locked up so he only needs a single bed, then clearly we are talking about the same arrest (Kate will be held until 1:00).
Wilkinson had the time wrong.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

How do you know Wilkinson got the time wrong?

Regards,

Simon

[DJA]

Much prefer the more realistic Daily Telegraph version.

[Wickerman]

Much prefer the more realistic Daily Telegraph version.

Collate the sources Dave, don't separate the sources.
It was the same inquest.

[Wickerman]

Hi Jon,

How do you know Wilkinson got the time wrong?

Regards,

Simon

I don't believe in clairvoyance.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Jon,

Nor do I.

But I do believe in something known as BS.

John Kelly was full of it.

Regards,

Simon

[harry]

Jon,
In your post 162 you write,afternoon was often used for evening in Victorian England.In a later post you speak of the normal usage of the description evening.
Whats your point in differencing between the two.What do you believe to be the norm?
The papers at that time always,as far as I can gather,referred to an evening edition.You have also used that term on many occassions.In common victorian usage,what time would that denote.Why didn't they/you say afternoon edition.