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  • I have a question; if Abberline, on the evening of the 12th, wanted to check on a crime reported in the Romford area in 1885, approximately how long would it take to obtain that information? Anyone have any idea?
    I confess that altruistic and cynically selfish talk seem to me about equally unreal. With all humility, I think 'whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,' infinitely more important than the vain attempt to love one's neighbour as one's self. If you want to hit a bird on the wing you must have all your will in focus, you must not be thinking about yourself, and equally, you must not be thinking about your neighbour; you must be living with your eye on that bird. Every achievement is a bird on the wing.
    Oliver Wendell Holmes

    Comment


    • Hi RJ,

      Nobody has claimed to know what Abberline “would” have written to Macnaghten, but it’s astoundingly clear what he didn’t write and wouldn’t have written, and that was a favourable review of Hutchinson’s account (and importance as a potential suspect identifier), after mysteriously mentioning nothing of him in the PMG interview. If he was trying to “sell” Klosowski to the PMG from the point of view of supposed compatibility with witness testimony from 1888, as he clearly was, he would obviously have used the “best” evidence available for a potential comparison.

      If the “best” was represented by Hutchinson, why would Abberline have chosen to “save it” for Mac while withholding it from the PMG, to whom he was presenting a case for SK-as-ripper?

      Other than the Macnaghten Memo ("no one saw the murderer"), Anderson and Swanson's comments on the supposed identification of Kosminski, and the thoughts of Walter Dew (who doesn't make a peep about Hutch having lied) you've yet to name a single "subsequent report" by a police source mentioning witnesses.
      ...And Abberline’s comments on the witnesses as published in the PMG.

      What more do you need, exactly? That’s four senior police officials, plus a decidedly lower ranking one, mentioning ripper-related eyewitness evidence after 1888. Their observations, which are wholly in alignment with the reported discrediting of Hutchinson in 1888, didn’t need making more than once. Their comments conveyed all they needed to about Hutchinson perceived credibility, or rather lack thereof.

      Why do you need more reports? What are you hoping for? For a separate, additional report from Macnaghten, for instance, which might have read “Oops, wait a minute! Contrary to what I said in my memo, I’ve just remembered that there was a brilliant witness who probably saw the murderer - forget what I said about a City PC”.

      Frankly, I suspect you and Abby, for all the talk of bad memories, have simply formed a wrong impression based on internal police discussions of Schwartz and other witnesses that PRE-DATED Hutchinson coming forward.
      Frankly, I’m at a loss as to what you’re talking about. It is quite clear that the post-1888 comments on the witnesses were written in the full knowledge of Hutchinson’s existence and story.

      All the best,
      Ben
      Last edited by Ben; 09-28-2018, 02:57 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Ben View Post
        Hi RJ,

        Nobody has claimed to know what Abberline “would” have written to Macnaghten, but it’s astoundingly clear what he didn’t write and wouldn’t have written, and that was a favourable review of Hutchinson’s account (and importance as a potential suspect identifier), after mysteriously mentioning nothing of him in the PMG interview. If he was trying to “sell” Klosowski to the PMG from the point of view of supposed compatibility with witness testimony from 1888, as he clearly was, he would obviously have used the “best” evidence available for a potential comparison.

        If the “best” was represented by Hutchinson, why would Abberline have chosen to “save it” for Mac while withholding it from the PMG, to whom he was presenting a case for SK-as-ripper?



        ...And Abberline’s comments on the witnesses as published in the PMG.

        What more do you need, exactly? That’s four senior police officials, plus a decidedly lower ranking one, mentioning ripper-related eyewitness evidence after 1888. Their observations, which are wholly in alignment with the reported discrediting of Hutchinson in 1888, didn’t need making more than once. Their comments conveyed all they needed to about Hutchinson perceived credibility, or rather lack thereof.

        Why do you need more reports? What are you hoping for? For a separate, additional report from Macnaghten, for instance, which might have read “Oops, wait a minute! Contrary to what I said in my memo, I’ve just remembered that there was a brilliant witness who probably saw the murderer - forget what I said about a City PC”.



        Frankly, I’m at a loss as to what you’re talking about. It is quite clear that the post-1888 comments on the witnesses were written in the full knowledge of Hutchinson’s existence and story.

        All the best,
        Ben
        Careful ben, your about to get a dissertation on semantics lol
        "Is all that we see or seem
        but a dream within a dream?"

        -Edgar Allan Poe


        "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
        quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

        -Frederick G. Abberline

        Comment


        • Originally posted by sleekviper View Post
          I have a question; if Abberline, on the evening of the 12th, wanted to check on a crime reported in the Romford area in 1885, approximately how long would it take to obtain that information? Anyone have any idea?
          The police had use of the telegraph to contact a station in Romford. The rest is up to investigation time at the other end.
          Regards, Jon S.

          Comment


          • Sorry Ben, but I can only chuckle, rather sadly, at how much emphasis you place on what WASN’T SAID by the notoriously tight-lipped officials at Scotland Yard, as they write and speak in general terms in later years. If I wanted to theorize on the basis of what four or five people didn’t mention, I could weave all sort of fantastic tales.

            These vague and general remarks about witnesses need to be viewed in their context. Abberline doesn’t mention Hutchinson because he is speaking in a general way about men seen with peaked caps. Dew openly remarks on Hutchinson’s honesty…which is hardly a refutation.

            Next up is Sir Mel. Here is Macnaghten’s only statement about witnesses (Aberconway version):

            “This man [Kosminski] in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square."

            That’s it, in its entirety.

            Anyone claiming this simple statement is a denouncement of Hutchinson has been sampling too many gin and tonics.

            So let’s move on to your only remotely valid argument: Swanson and Anderson; we can safely lump them together because Swanson is simply commenting on Anderson’s remarks.

            Here is the totality of it, in Anderson’s words:

            “The only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him, but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him."

            Your logic is not difficult to follow; if only one person ever had a good view of the murderer (and this person is Lawende) than we must dismiss Elizabeth Long, George Hutchinson, Israel Schwartz, Matt Packer, etc. as not having had a good view of the murderer. They all must be swept aside as pretenders, liars, and irrelevancies, and the books by Begg, Sugden, et al. must be seriously revised.

            Alas, if this is the rock on which you build your fortress, it puts you in the rather awkward position of accepting Anderson as making a statement of FACT. And if this is a statement of FACT, then you have little option but to concede that Kosminski was positively identified as the murderer, in which case Hutchinson was as innocent as a newborn lamb.

            But, eventually, we must wake up to reality. There is no direct police refutations of Hutchinson like we get with Violena; the only two coppers who mention Hutch by name both remark on his fundamental honesty—Abberline and Dew.

            So, ultimately, the only policemen in your corner is, by default, the tag team of Swanson and Anderson, and, rather embarrassingly for your theory, they name another man as the murderer.

            I find it rather odd that you accept this identification of someone else as a major plank in your theory.

            That said, I’m in a generous mood tonight. There are worst suspects than Hutch. He is the suspect of the ‘commonsense’ Ripperologist. He’s not really the murderer, of course, but one can see why he delights those still stuck in the world of 1990s “profiling.” Ah, the good ol’ 90s. Almost makes me want to put on grunge clothing and crank up a bit of Nirvana or Pixies on vinyl. With all good wishes.
            Last edited by rjpalmer; 09-28-2018, 10:30 PM.

            Comment


            • Thanks Wick!
              I confess that altruistic and cynically selfish talk seem to me about equally unreal. With all humility, I think 'whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might,' infinitely more important than the vain attempt to love one's neighbour as one's self. If you want to hit a bird on the wing you must have all your will in focus, you must not be thinking about yourself, and equally, you must not be thinking about your neighbour; you must be living with your eye on that bird. Every achievement is a bird on the wing.
              Oliver Wendell Holmes

              Comment


              • Hi RJ,

                Abberline doesn’t mention Hutchinson because he is speaking in a general way about men seen with peaked cap.
                Yes, but the only reason he was “speaking in a general way about men seen with peaked caps” is because he didn’t have anything better to offer the PMG in terms of eyewitness compatibility between Klosowski and the ripper witnesses. The peaked cap parallel was a tenuous one at best, but that was all Abberline had, whereas had not Hutchinson been discredited, he would unquestionably and with great zeal have latched onto the Astrakhan description for comparison purposes.

                Walter Dew evidently became aware at some point that the police were no longer interested in apprehending Astrakhan-resembling suspects, but not enjoying a senior enough rank, was kept into the dark as to why, prompting him to speculate years later.

                Next up is Sir Mel. Here is Macnaghten’s only statement about witnesses (Aberconway version):

                “This man [Kosminski] in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC near Mitre Square.
                That was most certainly not his “only statement about witnesses”; he also stated that “nobody ever saw the Whitechapel murderer unless possibly it was the City PC a beat near Mitre Square”.

                Unless Macnaghten was confidently able to exclude Astrakhan as the murderer while still accepting Hutchinson’s truthfulness - which wasn’t possible - the above remark very clearly demonstrates that Hutchinson was no longer considered a valid witness. Otherwise, it is astoundingly clear that he would have cited Hutchinson as the best candidate for “possibly” seeing the Whitechapel murderer.

                “The only person who had ever had a good view of the murderer at once identified him, but when he learned that the suspect was a fellow-Jew he declined to swear to him."

                Your logic is not difficult to follow; if only one person ever had a good view of the murderer (and this person is Lawende) than we must dismiss Elizabeth Long, George Hutchinson, Israel Schwartz, Matt Packer, etc. as not having had a good view of the murderer. They all must be swept aside as pretenders, liars, and irrelevancies, and the books by Begg, Sugden, et al. must be seriously revised.
                Anderson’s own words - the ones you’ve just quoted - make a nonsense of what you’ve written. Please let’s just look again at Anderson’s observation: “The only person who ever had a good view of the murderer...”

                Are you suggesting that Elizabeth Long had a “good view” of the murderer? Well then, there’s your explanation for her not being Anderson’s witness, ditto Cox, Marshall and a whole host of others who, by their own admissions, didn’t get “good” views at all. Packer was discredited, so he’s out too.

                Which leaves us, setting Hutchinson aside for the moment, with Schwartz and Lawende, who not-so-coincidentally meet Anderson’s “Jewish” criterion. Both acquired “good views” in the sense that their physical proximity to the suspects facilitated fairly detailed descriptions of their faces and clothing, but were they anything like as “good” as Hutchinson’s. No, they were absolute dross in comparison, and yet for some reason, Hutchinson was excluded from both consideration and use as a potential suspect identifier in the future.* For some reason, Anderson and Swanson came to accept that Hutchinson did not get “a good view” of the murderer.

                What credible reason exists for this, other than the one the Echo obtained from the police in mid-November 1888 - that Hutchinson’s statement had been “considerably discounted” because of doubts about its credibility?

                But then you suddenly leapfrog into a huge tangent about Hutchinson as a ripper suspect, which is entirely unrelated to the issue currently under discussion. I’m not sure quite how the police seniority all agreeing on Hutchinson’s discrediting is weakened by two of them fancying Kosminski on the basis of an alleged three-year-old identification.

                Moreover, I don’t see how Hutchinson’s discrediting materially affects the question of his potential culpability in the crimes. If there was no evidence for any discrediting, and I wished to make a case for Hutchinson as the ripper, I could just as easily argue that he successfully and permanently pulled the wool over the eyes of the police, sending them on a perpetual wild goose chase in pursuit of a fictional Astrakhan suspect.

                That said, I’m in a generous mood tonight. There are worst suspects than Hutch. He is the suspect of the ‘commonsense’ Ripperologist
                Yes, I agree, and the increasing popularity of his candidacy has heralded a seismic shift away from the “Gentleman Jack” model, as popularised in the 1970s, in favour of a more realistic, criminological and, as you say, “commonsense” approach to the study of these crimes, despite fierce residence in some quarters.

                All the best,
                Ben

                *Yes, I’m aware that a preference for one of the Jewish witnesses as “the only person...etc” tends to preclude the other from consideration, but that’s an entirely separate discussion.
                Last edited by Ben; 09-29-2018, 04:52 AM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Ben View Post
                  Yes, I agree, and the increasing popularity of his candidacy has heralded a seismic shift away from the “Gentleman Jack” model, as popularised in the 1970s, in favour of a more realistic, criminological and, as you say, “commonsense” approach to the study of these crimes
                  I'd say that the interest in Hutchinson as a suspect came about during the more sober approach to the case that has arisen in recent decades. Hutch was one among many suspects who didn't conform to the Gentleman Jack model, but he wasn't the first, and he wasn't exactly the herald of a new age of ripperology.
                  Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                  "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                  Comment


                  • Fair enough, Gareth. Substitute “heralded” for “embodied”, and I don’t think we’re too wide of the mark.

                    Comment


                    • Hi Ben. Unfortunately, I don't consider the FBI profile to be a 'sober' step towards enlightenment. In some ways, the 60s and 70s had more wisdom than those chasing this pseudo-scientific fantasy of the 90s.

                      John Douglas claimed the Ripper would be a local chap who would seek a job cutting up animals.

                      O really? Did Chikatilo work as a fish gutter? Did Ted Bundy seek employment in a horse rendering plant?

                      Why would anyone believe this bilge?

                      Chikatilo was a school teacher; Bundy was a want-to-be lawyer who wore tweed jackets and turtlenecked sweaters--a pseudo intellectual who hob-knobbed on college campuses. I'd call that a 'toff.'

                      Further, the idea of "Jack the Jewbaiter" murdering middle-aged prostitutes in order to implicate the Jews is every bit as fanciful as the Royal Conspiracy of the 1970s.

                      It brings us back to the era of Stephen Knight, ABBA, and bellbottom jeans.

                      There are cases of mass murderers who target groups, of course; the nutter in Montreal, for instance, who hated feminists and shot women on a college campus. Mark Essex, who hated white people and killed a number of them. John Glover in Australia who hated old women and murdered them with a hammer.

                      Simply put, if the Ripper hated Jews, he would have targeted Jews. The psychology is really that simple.

                      The idea that he is targeting gentile "unfortunates" in order to get at the Jews is a "literary" solution to the case; it might be a "cracking good read," but it is no more psychologically realistic or plausible than Sir William Gullible killing East End women in order to silence a Royal scandal.

                      The Ripper was a misogynist. Any attempt to stray beyond that reality is a fantasy. Misogynists, like psychopaths, come from various economic backgrounds; no reason to believe he was a non-descript chap a la Lechmere, Barnett, Hutchinson, etc. etc. You've merely exchanged one myth for another myth, wrapped it in dubious science, and fly it in the air like a flag of victory.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                        Simply put, if the Ripper hated Jews, he would have targeted Jews. The psychology is really that simple.
                        What is the barrier preventing an anti-semite being a psychopathic misogynist?

                        Why would a serial offender not utilize the public perception the murders were the work of a Jew to their advantage?

                        The anti-semitic connotations are facts of the case. Pizer (leather apron) was a suspect in the middle of all this and it got huge publicity.

                        Berner St., has an attacker shouting anti-semitic slurs at a Jewish passersby and a woman is murdered next to a Jewish social club.

                        A few hours later another woman is murdered and in the middle of a Jewish marketplace a piece of her bloody apron is found with some anti-semitic graffiti next to it.

                        It's hard to just claim this was all coincidence. Coincidental murders and coincidental anti-semitic connotations with each?
                        Bona fide canonical and then some.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Batman View Post
                          What is the barrier preventing an anti-semite being a psychopathic misogynist?

                          Why would a serial offender not utilize the public perception the murders were the work of a Jew to their advantage?

                          The anti-semitic connotations are facts of the case. Pizer (leather apron) was a suspect in the middle of all this and it got huge publicity.

                          Berner St., has an attacker shouting anti-semitic slurs at a Jewish passersby and a woman is murdered next to a Jewish social club.

                          A few hours later another woman is murdered and in the middle of a Jewish marketplace a piece of her bloody apron is found with some anti-semitic graffiti next to it.

                          It's hard to just claim this was all coincidence. Coincidental murders and coincidental anti-semitic connotations with each?
                          Your probably onto something Batman but unfortunately I doubt this narrows down the suspects much.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by John Wheat View Post
                            Your probably onto something Batman but unfortunately I doubt this narrows down the suspects much.
                            Right, it doesn't tell us who JtR is. However, it does tell us who he isn't or else it's a Jew with a serious identity crisis. Kozminski is a favourite Jewish suspect. Yet these anti-semitic correlations in the Stride and Eddowes scenes are pointing away from Kozmisnki and not at him as a suspect.
                            Bona fide canonical and then some.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                              Hi Ben. Unfortunately, I don't consider the FBI profile to be a 'sober' step towards enlightenment. In some ways, the 60s and 70s had more wisdom than those chasing this pseudo-scientific fantasy of the 90s.

                              John Douglas claimed the Ripper would be a local chap who would seek a job cutting up animals.

                              O really? Did Chikatilo work as a fish gutter? Did Ted Bundy seek employment in a horse rendering plant?

                              Why would anyone believe this bilge?

                              Chikatilo was a school teacher; Bundy was a want-to-be lawyer who wore tweed jackets and turtlenecked sweaters--a pseudo intellectual who hob-knobbed on college campuses. I'd call that a 'toff.'

                              Further, the idea of "Jack the Jewbaiter" murdering middle-aged prostitutes in order to implicate the Jews is every bit as fanciful as the Royal Conspiracy of the 1970s.

                              It brings us back to the era of Stephen Knight, ABBA, and bellbottom jeans.

                              There are cases of mass murderers who target groups, of course; the nutter in Montreal, for instance, who hated feminists and shot women on a college campus. Mark Essex, who hated white people and killed a number of them. John Glover in Australia who hated old women and murdered them with a hammer.

                              Simply put, if the Ripper hated Jews, he would have targeted Jews. The psychology is really that simple.

                              The idea that he is targeting gentile "unfortunates" in order to get at the Jews is a "literary" solution to the case; it might be a "cracking good read," but it is no more psychologically realistic or plausible than Sir William Gullible killing East End women in order to silence a Royal scandal.

                              The Ripper was a misogynist. Any attempt to stray beyond that reality is a fantasy. Misogynists, like psychopaths, come from various economic backgrounds; no reason to believe he was a non-descript chap a la Lechmere, Barnett, Hutchinson, etc. etc. You've merely exchanged one myth for another myth, wrapped it in dubious science, and fly it in the air like a flag of victory.
                              What the hells wrong with bellbottom jeans???

                              You need to write a book RJ, there's more common sense in those few sentences above than most of what Ive read by Canter & Douglas, combined.

                              I so miss wearing bellbottom jeans.... the 70's were great!!!
                              Disco not so much....
                              Regards, Jon S.

                              Comment


                              • ABBA, Journey and Air Supply as well.

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