Possible reason for Hutch coming forward

[John Wheat]

Hi Caz
your absolutely right-the police never apparently suspected him, and that is a check mark against his validity as a suspect to me also. However, I'm certainly not conjuring up anything. he engaged in stalking behavior, had fictitional suspect and waited until after the inquest to come forward and had no alibi.

I don't think the police were idiots, but neither were they infallible-especially at this early stage in serial/homicide "motiveless" crimes.

and the only thing "conjured up" is hutches Aman.

We don't know Hutch's suspect was fictional.

[Fisherman]

We don't know Hutch's suspect was fictional.

Au contraire, actually - we know that the police accepted him as a reality, and we know that they sought for him for a long time. Plus we know that there were people around at the time who actually answered quite well to the approximate description given by Hutchinson. So the only conjecture I see around here is the one telling us that Hutchinson must have made Astrakhan man up. He must not, and the police did not think that he did.

Feels a bit weird to agree with you, John, but that´s what Ripperology does to us; every now and then we stand on the same side with people we otherwise do not share nothing much at all.

[Michael W Richards]

I can take the criticism Michael, thats ok. What I would like you to do though, is offer a few of those reason's why G. H. would believe he was the last person to see Kelly in the company of someone 6-7 hours before it was believed she was murdered.

Just a few, Michael. Thanks.

If you recall, Swanson wasn't sold on the idea that Broad Shoulder Man had killed Stride, because there was 15 minutes that could not be accounted for.
Only 15 minutes Michael, 15 minutes is sufficient for the whole scene to change - and we are talking here about 6-7 hours!!!

If I recall Jon Bond thought she had been murdered before Hutchs sighting.

[Fisherman]

If I recall Jon Bond thought she had been murdered before Hutchs sighting.

... which, if it is true, points to how Hutchinson could not have seen Kelly with Astrakhan man on that day ... but quite possibly on the day before.

[Abby Normal]

Au contraire, actually - we know that the police accepted him as a reality, and we know that they sought for him for a long time. Plus we know that there were people around at the time who actually answered quite well to the approximate description given by Hutchinson. So the only conjecture I see around here is the one telling us that Hutchinson must have made Astrakhan man up. He must not, and the police did not think that he did.

Feels a bit weird to agree with you, John, but that´s what Ripperology does to us; every now and then we stand on the same side with people we otherwise do not share nothing much at all.

yes, it makes strange bedfellows sometimes as well as adversaries! : )

[Wickerman]

If I recall Jon Bond thought she had been murdered before Hutchs sighting.

Indeed Michael, though Hutch would not be aware of that when he gave his statement.
And, for Bond to come up with such a time as 1-2:00, he had to have been given an assumed purchase time for the fish & potato pie, or fish & chips, whatever it was. Other than that he would not have been aware of any evidence given by witnesses.

[Wickerman]

.....
your absolutely right-the police never apparently suspected him, and that is a check mark against his validity as a suspect to me also.

I think the whole "suspect" argument came from the fact that the nearest ones to the victim, like spouse or lover, in this case a friend, plus any person claiming to be the last one to see the victim alive - are automatically people who the police will track down. We call them automatic suspects, though that can give the wrong impression. Today they be "Persons of Interest".

Other than that Hutch was not a suspect in the traditional sense of the word.

[c.d.]

Hello Wick,

Agreed. I think the important thing is regardless of whether the police considered Hutch a witness, person of interest, suspect, publicity seeker, nut job or ice cream salesman he would have been asked why he was standing outside of Mary's apartment that night and what his relationship was with her etc. Apparently his answers convinced the police (rightly or wrongly) that he was not involved in her murder.

c.d.

[Wickerman]

Hello Wick,

Agreed. I think the important thing is regardless of whether the police considered Hutch a witness, person of interest, suspect, publicity seeker, nut job or ice cream salesman he would have been asked why he was standing outside of Mary's apartment that night and what his relationship was with her etc. Apparently his answers convinced the police (rightly or wrongly) that he was not involved in her murder.

c.d.

Hi c.d.

That's a tricky one.
From our point of view, knowing as little as we do. There isn't a wide range of feasible answers to that question.
I'm not sure he would have said that he waited with the intent of checking on Kelly after Astrachan leaves, because the next day he told a reporter that the man did not look suspicious.
Abberline was quite capable of considering a few illicit reason's for Hutch to loiter as long as he did. So, as you say, Hutch must have been quite convincing in the reason he gave.

[John Wheat]

Au contraire, actually - we know that the police accepted him as a reality, and we know that they sought for him for a long time. Plus we know that there were people around at the time who actually answered quite well to the approximate description given by Hutchinson. So the only conjecture I see around here is the one telling us that Hutchinson must have made Astrakhan man up. He must not, and the police did not think that he did.

Feels a bit weird to agree with you, John, but that´s what Ripperology does to us; every now and then we stand on the same side with people we otherwise do not share nothing much at all.

Fair enough. I've said this before and maybe it's a bit obvious but I agree with someone when I think they are right. I'd have thought most people would share this attitude.

[caz]

Hi Caz
your absolutely right-the police never apparently suspected him, and that is a check mark against his validity as a suspect to me also. However, I'm certainly not conjuring up anything. he engaged in stalking behavior, had fictitional suspect and waited until after the inquest to come forward and had no alibi.

I don't think the police were idiots, but neither were they infallible-especially at this early stage in serial/homicide "motiveless" crimes.

and the only thing "conjured up" is hutches Aman.

Hi Abby,

He had a potential alibi, if he left the court when he said he did, and Kelly could have been killed later.

But there is also the possibility that the police made enquiries and discovered Hutch was in Romford the whole time, or even safely tucked up in bed at the Victoria Home, and was perhaps recalling an encounter from a day or two earlier, if not inventing the whole thing. Either way he'd have been officially cleared - along with his real or fictional suspect.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

If I recall Jon Bond thought she had been murdered before Hutchs sighting.

So an alibi for Hutch.

And others thought it was after a cry of murder heard shortly before 4am, or even several hours later.

So an alibi again for Hutch, presuming nobody could prove he didn't leave at 3am as he claimed.

Did anyone put the time of death while Hutch was meant to be hanging round the court?

One of the points frequently brought up in the A6 murder thread is that a suspect doesn't have to prove their whereabouts or come up with a credible alibi; it's up to the prosecution, not just to demolish an alibi, but to put the suspect beyond reasonable doubt at the scene of crime when it was committed.

If there is no conclusive time of death, this makes it virtually impossible to put Hutch in 13 Miller's Court when Kelly was being slaughtered.

Love,

Caz
X

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Caz
your absolutely right-the police never apparently suspected him, and that is a check mark against his validity as a suspect to me also. However, I'm certainly not conjuring up anything. he engaged in stalking behavior, had fictitional suspect and waited until after the inquest to come forward and had no alibi.

I don't think the police were idiots, but neither were they infallible-especially at this early stage in serial/homicide "motiveless" crimes.

and the only thing "conjured up" is hutches Aman.

I think its possible the entire story was a fairy tale Caz, including the walk from Romford. What I don't see is why extra caution wasnt given to this story without any proof of it in the most meaningful accounts given. Those witnesses of the courtyard, and from #26. The fact that one of those witnesses saw someone lurking makes this coming forward....after 4 days...dangerous. His story when married with another account makes him as you say, at the very least a stalker, and a potential accomplice to the crime..."if only after the fact". Maybe they thought they had missed the boat with Packer and decided to throw caution to the wind.

Why he would do it is for me the fascination with Hutchinson. What could be gained,... although on the face of it the obvious transition from stalker to friend-looking-out-for-friend would allow the actual Wideawake some time to breathe. I think his intention was to do just that, but to whose benefit?

[caz]

You were addressing Abby's post, Michael, not mine. I don't really buy the 'stalker' accusation. We only have Hutch's own words for what he was doing, and the police didn't appear to get the impression that he had been indulging in stalking behaviour and was now choosing to volunteer that information.

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

He had a potential alibi, if he left the court when he said he did, and Kelly could have been killed later.

But there is also the possibility that the police made enquiries and discovered Hutch was in Romford the whole time, or even safely tucked up in bed at the Victoria Home, and was perhaps recalling an encounter from a day or two earlier, if not inventing the whole thing. Either way he'd have been officially cleared - along with his real or fictional suspect.

Love,

Caz
X

Hi caz
He had no alibi, was never, as we can tell a suspect, and never cleared.

Now if you and others want to say his witness interview somehow included him being a defacto suspect and questioning and clearing then so be it, but it’s not really how it played out. The extent of suspicion never got farther than perhaps the police came to believe his story as a witness was BS, like previous BS witnesses, as reflected in the press stories as being discounted, and didn’t want to waste any more time with him.