Mary Jane Kelly - Did They Know?

[MysterySinger]

There seemed to be a drift of certain folks to Miller's Court on the night/morning of Kelly's murder. Did some people have prior knowledge that something was going to happen that night?

In particular George Hutchinson seems to have been on his guard that night in taking special note of the man he says he saw with MJK and indeed of her movements.

I believe that I have a candidate for the person of George Hutchinson and I don't believe that was his real name and, therefore, was not Toppy. The evidence is mainly circumstantial at the moment and a little more work is needed but, if I have the right person, he was at best a real fantasist - someone with a fixation on murders both in Whitechapel and elsewhere and over many years previously.

At worst, if he wasn't merely a fantasist he was indeed capable of murder. However, whilst he could have been the author of the MJK murder - he is unlikely to have been responsible for the double event because I suspect he was incarcerated at that time. But MJK seems to have been a personal slaying and that's why it was more savage and why her face was attacked in such fashion. "Hutch" has admitted after all being in the vicinity at that time - but I also believe that it is not all he has admitted.

My questions for this post are:
a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;
b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

[richardnunweek]

Hi, Mystery singer,
Somebody knew what was going to happen that night the killer.
Someone who knew where 14 Dorset street was situated.
The letter writer to the Norfolk police , a week prior to Millers court.
And as for Hutchinson, he has been overcooked in recent years, he was almost certain one George William Topping Hutchinson., a person who witnessed Mary Kelly with a man,and I [although, in a minority], believe his statement.
For the record, I believe the killer of Kelly was staying in a lodging house in Dorset street, most likely was a worker at the market, and intended to commit his deed during the night, but because Hutchinson's man was in her room, he waited until daylight when he saw Mary outside Ringers, and approached her [ witnessed by Maxwell].
If one deceivers all the bits of witnesses reports, it seems a fair bet , that a man accompanied Mary Kelly back to her room.
Regards Richard.

[DirectorDave]

I'm not sure where to even start on the "did they know".

However Hutchinson is well dodgy, his actions that night then his ludicrous statement...even more troubling that the police believed it...unless there was a detail that we are now missing like "Hutch the Memory man" was George's party piece.


So...

a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;

No, of course not.

b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

Yes, probably and yes he could have.

[John Wheat]

There seemed to be a drift of certain folks to Miller's Court on the night/morning of Kelly's murder. Did some people have prior knowledge that something was going to happen that night?

In particular George Hutchinson seems to have been on his guard that night in taking special note of the man he says he saw with MJK and indeed of her movements.

I believe that I have a candidate for the person of George Hutchinson and I don't believe that was his real name and, therefore, was not Toppy. The evidence is mainly circumstantial at the moment and a little more work is needed but, if I have the right person, he was at best a real fantasist - someone with a fixation on murders both in Whitechapel and elsewhere and over many years previously.

At worst, if he wasn't merely a fantasist he was indeed capable of murder. However, whilst he could have been the author of the MJK murder - he is unlikely to have been responsible for the double event because I suspect he was incarcerated at that time. But MJK seems to have been a personal slaying and that's why it was more savage and why her face was attacked in such fashion. "Hutch" has admitted after all being in the vicinity at that time - but I also believe that it is not all he has admitted.

My questions for this post are:
a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;
b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

A. No
B. The chances of Hutch killing Kelly are virtually zero.

[Michael W Richards]

There seemed to be a drift of certain folks to Miller's Court on the night/morning of Kelly's murder. Did some people have prior knowledge that something was going to happen that night?

In particular George Hutchinson seems to have been on his guard that night in taking special note of the man he says he saw with MJK and indeed of her movements.

I believe that I have a candidate for the person of George Hutchinson and I don't believe that was his real name and, therefore, was not Toppy. The evidence is mainly circumstantial at the moment and a little more work is needed but, if I have the right person, he was at best a real fantasist - someone with a fixation on murders both in Whitechapel and elsewhere and over many years previously.

At worst, if he wasn't merely a fantasist he was indeed capable of murder. However, whilst he could have been the author of the MJK murder - he is unlikely to have been responsible for the double event because I suspect he was incarcerated at that time. But MJK seems to have been a personal slaying and that's why it was more savage and why her face was attacked in such fashion. "Hutch" has admitted after all being in the vicinity at that time - but I also believe that it is not all he has admitted.

My questions for this post are:
a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;
b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

Hi Mystery Singer,

My take is;

a) I believe if it was indeed Hutchinson there under the circumstances he describes he is quite possibly a lookout or on the lookout for someone. I also believe its quite possible it wasn't him seen there that night.
b) A co-conspirator perhaps, but I feel someone who had knowledge about her killer.

[Wickerman]

There seemed to be a drift of certain folks to Miller's Court on the night/morning of Kelly's murder. Did some people have prior knowledge that something was going to happen that night?

Hi M.S.
Ok, the first question I have is, what do you mean by that first line?
Are you suggesting Millers Court was generally more active that night than normal, or are you saying that a couple of the people who claimed to be there were only there by design?

My questions for this post are:
a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;
b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

a) no indication of that.
b) Anyone 'could' have killed Kelly. Hutch is just as likely as Bowyer, McCarthy, Blotchy, or any other local male. But, you have the same problem, there is no evidence against any of them.
Nothing claimed by Hutch has ever been shown to be a lie, or even wrong.
If you want to believe he is a fantasist, that's your choice. Though as with all the other accusations against him, it is based on nothing.

[GUT]

I’m one of those who can see no signs of fantasist in Hutch.

Doesn’t mean he wasn’t, just in my opinion there’s been no evidence he was.

[Abby Normal]

There seemed to be a drift of certain folks to Miller's Court on the night/morning of Kelly's murder. Did some people have prior knowledge that something was going to happen that night?

In particular George Hutchinson seems to have been on his guard that night in taking special note of the man he says he saw with MJK and indeed of her movements.

I believe that I have a candidate for the person of George Hutchinson and I don't believe that was his real name and, therefore, was not Toppy. The evidence is mainly circumstantial at the moment and a little more work is needed but, if I have the right person, he was at best a real fantasist - someone with a fixation on murders both in Whitechapel and elsewhere and over many years previously.

At worst, if he wasn't merely a fantasist he was indeed capable of murder. However, whilst he could have been the author of the MJK murder - he is unlikely to have been responsible for the double event because I suspect he was incarcerated at that time. But MJK seems to have been a personal slaying and that's why it was more savage and why her face was attacked in such fashion. "Hutch" has admitted after all being in the vicinity at that time - but I also believe that it is not all he has admitted.

My questions for this post are:
a) did folks know that something was about to happen on the night/morning of the Kelly murder;
b) was "Hutch" a fantasist or could he have killed Kelly in your opinions?

HI MS
It will be interesting who your hutch is.

a)no
b) either

[c.d.]

"However Hutchinson is well dodgy, his actions that night then his ludicrous statement...even more troubling that the police believed it...unless there was a detail that we are now missing like "Hutch the Memory man" was George's party piece."

Hello Dave,

"Believed it" is pretty nebulous. It could simply have been that initially they were willing to believe that it was more likely true than not. Or it is was true with perhaps a few embellishments thrown in. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were willing to bet the souls of their wives and children on it being true. And ultimately they gave Hutch a pass. I don't think they were complete fools. Could have Hutch have killed Mary and been the Ripper as well? Yes. Absolutely. And while it is certainly possible that he fooled the police I am willing to give their opinion a great deal of weight.

c.d.

[MysterySinger]

[QUOTE=Wickerman;432501]Hi M.S.
Ok, the first question I have is, what do you mean by that first line?
Are you suggesting Millers Court was generally more active that night than normal, or are you saying that a couple of the people who claimed to be there were only there by design?


Well it may have been no more active than normal but I can't help thinking that folks were on pins given some of the statements. It's as if there was something in the air that night but then that may just be my reading and seeing things that aren't there (hence why I'm asking for views).

Sarah Lewis - was described as being a laundress of 34 Great Pearl Street. Between 2.00 and 3.00am that morning she said she had gone to stay with her friends the Keylers at 2 Miller's Court as the result of 'a few words' with her husband.

Mrs Kennedy - was on the night of the murder staying with her parents at a house situated in the court immediately opposite the room in which the body of Mary Kelly was found.

Mary Ann Cox and Elizabeth Prater both seemed unsettled too. Hutchinson was taking particular note of Kelly's companion.

There may be other examples.

[MysterySinger]

[QUOTE=Abby Normal;432505]HI MS
It will be interesting who your hutch is.


Yes I'll present what evidence I have soon but it will be quite lengthy.

[Paddy]

I always wondered if Hutch was actually Henry/Harry Hutchinson the policeman. But I doubt if he would have put a false signature on an official police document so discounted him...

Pat...