Hutchinsons statement....

[Wickerman]

So the Coroner had decided that Kelly was murdered about an hour before Kennedy said she saw Kelly in the street? And before Prater and Lewis heard a cry of murder? And long before Maxwell saw her?

But you told me in the plainest terms only a few posts ago:

"by calling Mrs Maxwell to testify to seeing Kelly after 9:00 am, then clearly Kelly had to be alive at 3:00 am."

So now I'm confused. Given that the Coroner did call Maxwell to testify to seeing Kelly alive after 9:00am, how is that Kelly possibly turns out to NOT be alive at 3:00am?

In calling Maxwell who claims Kelly was alive about 9:00 am, then clearly any 3:00 am sighting of Kelly is covered.
He doesn't need to call Kennedy for her 3:00 am sighting if he calls Maxwell for the 9:00 am sighting.
The important piece of the puzzle that is not so easy to determine is, that Macdonald may have believed Kelly died around 1:00-2:00 am.
So, all the witness testimony he will hear that day is just "going through the motions".

[Fisherman]

Ah sorry Fisherman, I forgot that you have already solved the murders so there is obviously no further progress to be made.

I may have been part of solving the murders, but since it cannot be proven, I´d say that there are lots of progress to be made.

A slightly more clever answer to my post would be a useful start. For example. But don´t strain yourself.

[David Orsam]

A slightly more clever answer to my post would be a useful start

A slightly more clever answer would have been unnecessary and futile.

[David Orsam]

He doesn't need to call Kennedy for her 3:00 am sighting if he calls Maxwell for the 9:00 am sighting.

But if Maxwell might be wrong then that's totally irrational.

[Wickerman]

Is that how it worked in 1888 then Jon? Coroners formed their own theories as to time of death before an inquest and then didn't bother to call witnesses whose evidence conflicted with that theory?

We have the press reporting Dr's Phillips & Macdonald together at Kelly's room.

Dr. Phillips and Dr. Macdonald, M.P., the coroner for the district, visited Miller's court, and after the refuse had been passed through a sieve it was subjected to the closest scrutiny by the medical gentlemen.

Here Dr's Phillips & Bond are mentioned in the same activity:

Examining the ashes with the assistance of Dr. Phillips and Dr. Bond, for the presence of any fatty matter, or any trace of burnt flesh.

So it would appear Macdonald, Phillips & Bond were in room 13 that Saturday afternoon discussing the evidence.
Medical practitioners preference for professional opinion could very easily outweigh any vague and questionable witness testimony.
This was the 10th, the day Dr. Bond formed his estimated time of death, 1:00-2:00 am.

[David Orsam]

This was the 10th, the day Dr. Bond formed his estimated time of death, 1:00-2:00 am.

What did you mean by this sentence then:

"Excuse me for pointing this out, but by calling Mrs Maxwell to testify to seeing Kelly after 9:00 am, then clearly Kelly had to be alive at 3:00 am." ?

[Wickerman]

What did you mean by this sentence then:

"Excuse me for pointing this out, but by calling Mrs Maxwell to testify to seeing Kelly after 9:00 am, then clearly Kelly had to be alive at 3:00 am." ?

I could have worded it better.
The claim was that the court would need to know if Kelly was alive at 3:00 am, but in calling Maxwell this objection is covered, clearly if she was alive at 9:00 am then she had to be alive at 3:00.

I wasn't implying Macdonald believed all this.
I think part of the reason the inquest was so quickly terminated was Macdonald saw no need to go any further.

[David Orsam]

I could have worded it better.
The claim was that the court would need to know if Kelly was alive at 3:00 am, but in calling Maxwell this objection is covered, clearly if she was alive at 9:00 am then she had to be alive at 3:00.

But if she wasn't alive at 9:00 (and, as I understand you, the Coroner didn't think she was for one second) then she could have been alive at 3:00am, talking to her murderer outside the Britannia. Especially as Bond states that "it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty the exact time that had elapsed since death" and that would surely have been communicated to the Coroner.

So it was surely odd on any view for the Coroner not call evidence which could have been absolutely crucial in respect of her murder.

[Fisherman]

A slightly more clever answer would have been unnecessary and futile.

No, it would have been necessary and useful. Resorting to witless antics like the ones you are trying right now, however ...

[David Orsam]

Resorting to witless antics like the ones you are trying right now, however ...

Such as?

[Wickerman]

But if she wasn't alive at 9:00 (and, as I understand you, the Coroner didn't think she was for one second) then she could have been alive at 3:00am, talking to her murderer outside the Britannia. Especially as Bond states that "it is difficult to say with any degree of certainty the exact time that had elapsed since death" and that would surely have been communicated to the Coroner.

How do we quantify "exact time", does he mean within 30 minutes either way?

So it was surely odd on any view for the Coroner not call evidence which could have been absolutely crucial in respect of her murder.

He has already read the evidence (ie; witness statements), so he knew there wasn't anything of value to contest Dr. Bond. Besides, he chose them too, right?
Plus, he already had the story from Cox which was consistent with the medical conclusion.
I'm sure if Wynne-Baxter had been the coroner we would have had considerably more testimony, but then Wynne-Baxter was not a medical man.

[David Orsam]

How do we quantify "exact time", does he mean within 30 minutes either way?

Well considering that he continues "as the period various from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in" it doesn't seem that he is talking about 30 minutes either way.

[Wickerman]

Well considering that he continues "as the period various from 6 to 12 hours before rigidity sets in" it doesn't seem that he is talking about 30 minutes either way.

You left out the bit where he concludes, "it is, therefore, pretty certain that the woman must have been dead about 12 hours..."

[David Orsam]

He has already read the evidence (ie; witness statements), so he knew there wasn't anything of value to contest Dr. Bond.

Well hold on, I think you must mean Dr Phillips. Bond was giving a report to Anderson not the Coroner.

You can't seriously think that the Coroner was able to rule out a time of death at 3:00am, sufficiently to rule out witness evidence which saw Kelly alive at that time, can you?

And don't you find it strange that the Coroner asked Sarah Lewis so many questions about the man who accosted her in Bethnal Green considering that she also saw him outside the Britannia at a time when the Coroner believed Kelly had already been murdered and the killer's accomplice was waiting outside Miller's Court for him to emerge from number 13?

Those questions are below:

Have you seen any suspicious persons in the district ? - On Wednesday night I was going along the Bethnal-green-road, with a woman, about eight o'clock, when a gentleman passed us. He followed us and spoke to us, and wanted us to follow him into an entry. He had a shiny leather bag with him.
Did he want both of you ? - No; only one. I refused. He went away and came back again, saying he would treat us. He put down his bag and picked it up again, saying, "What are you frightened about ? Do you think I've got anything in the bag ?" We then ran away, as we were frightened.
Was he a tall man ? - He was short, pale-faced, with a black moustache, rather small. His age was about forty.
Was it a large bag ? - No, about 6in to 9in long. His hat was a high round hat. He had a brownish overcoat, with a black short coat underneath. His trousers were a dark pepper-and-salt.
After he left you what did you do ? - We ran away.
Have you seen him since ? - On Friday morning, about half-past two a.m., when I was going to Miller's-court, I met the same man with a woman in Commercial-street, near Mr. Ringer's public-house (the Britannia). He had no overcoat on.
Had he the black bag ? - Yes.
Were the man and woman quarrelling ? - No; they were talking. As I passed he looked at me. I don't know whether he recognised me. There was no policeman about

All a complete waste of time as far as the Coroner was concerned?

[Sam Flynn]

I'm sure if Wynne-Baxter had been the coroner we would have had considerably more testimony, but then Wynne-Baxter was not a medical man.

I agree. Probably my biggest frustration/regret about the Ripper case is that Baxter was not in charge of the Kelly inquest.