Hutchinsons statement....

[Sam Flynn]

You don't find it at all extraordinary that she claimed to see and hear things that night that nobody else did, and didn't hear things other people claimed to hear?

Not in the least extraordinary, because the things she saw and heard were not out of the ordinary.

Man with blotchy face and pot of ale, versus "dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with the dark moustache turned up at the ends, who wore the soft felt hat, the long dark coat, trimmed with astrachan, the black necktie, with horseshoe pin, and the button boots, and displayed a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached" (to say nothing of the parcel with a strap).

Also, Kelly having a song after saying she was going to "have a song" is as nothing compared to the actions and dialogue described by Hutchinson before, during and after her encounter with Astrakhan Man.

[Abby Normal]

Indeed. My apologies. I wasn't aware (or had forgotten if once I was) that Hutchinson was named in this way. Who or what discredited him I wonder - (or caused The Star to believe that he had been).

Thanks. yes would be nice to know what was the reason, and we can only make an educated guess.

Mine would be after the little walkabout, and no go-- and or he said something to the police during it, perhaps too much emphasis on reward or whatever, they came to find him unreliable.

[Abby Normal]

Not in the least extraordinary, because the things she saw and heard were not out of the ordinary.

Man with blotchy face and pot of ale, versus "dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with the dark moustache turned up at the ends, who wore the soft felt hat, the long dark coat, trimmed with astrachan, the black necktie, with horseshoe pin, and the button boots, and displayed a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached" (to say nothing of the parcel with a strap).

Also, Kelly having a song after saying she was going to "have a song" is as nothing compared to the actions and dialogue described by Hutchinson before, during and after her encounter with Astrakhan Man.

exactly and not sure if you saw my previous post but cox is corroborated as others heard Marys singing also.

[cnr]

more reports...

There's a very specific report in the Star of 15th November.

There are a number of such reports, starting with the Echo on the 13th, the day after Hutchinson came forward with his police statement. In this particular instance, while not questioning the validity of what he had to say immediately, an early framework of potential doubt is already raised:

"The police are embarrassed with two definite descriptions of the man suspected of being the murderer".

Then, in the same edition the floodgates opened, even before Hutchinson's name was in the public domain:

"The importance which they (police) then attached to it (Hutchinson's sighting) has since suffered diminution" and "From latest inquiries it appears that a very reduced importance seems to be now - in the light of later investigation - attached to a statement made by a person last night that he saw a man with the deceased on the night of the murder. Of course, such a statement should have been made at the inquest..."

A non-exhaustive list of reports in a more or less similar vein include<1>:

* Echo, 13th
* Star, 15th
* Morning Post, 16th
* London Graphic, 17th
* Echo, 19th

<1> Cited, Chapter 5 'No Englishman', Jewbaiter Jack The Ripper: New Evidence & Theory (Acorn Independent Press, 2017)

[Bridewell]

Just returning to the subject of whether Hutchinson's attention was focused on MJK or her client. This is from Badham's report detailing his statement:-

"I stood against the lamp of the Queen's Head Public House and watched him". (my bold type).

I've also re-read the description and the length of time he had in which to observe the man:

There is the encounter, presumably near the Queen's Head, where he looks into the man's face, then: "They both went into Dorset Street. I followed them. They both stood at the corner of the Court for about 3 minutes" (my italics). Three minutes is enough time to note quite a lot about someone's appearance, even in fairly poor light, if one is close enough and, according to Hutchinson, he was close enough to hear the conversation between MJK and Astrakhan Man. I doubt if this was a loud exchange so if his account is not fictitious, he was close enough.

The description itself:

"Age about 34 or 35, height 5' 6", complexion pale, dark eyes and eyelashes, dark (crossed out) slight moustache, curled up each end and hair dark. Very surly looking. Dress - long dark coat, collar and cuffs trimmed astracan and a dark jacket under. Light waistcoat. Dark trousers, dark felt hat turned down in the middle. Button boots and gaiters with white buttons. Wore a very thick gold chain, white linen collar, black tie with horse shoe pin. Respectable appearance."

He stooped to look into the man's face, which would be enough to see the facial features. The clothing would not be difficult, except for the chain being 'gold', but that could have been surmise on his part. 'Horse shoe pin' was unremarkable attire in the LVP and I don't see anything truly remarkable in Hutchinson's having noticed it. His account is embellished in later reports but that, to me is unremarkable. If Badham knew how to take a statement, he knew enough to remind the witness to include only the detail he was sure of. I suspect, therefore, that he thought the chain had a large stone pendant, but was unsure on that particular point - which was therefore omitted from the official account.

[Joshua Rogan]

Not in the least extraordinary, because the things she saw and heard were not out of the ordinary.

Man with blotchy face and pot of ale, versus "dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with the dark moustache turned up at the ends, who wore the soft felt hat, the long dark coat, trimmed with astrachan, the black necktie, with horseshoe pin, and the button boots, and displayed a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached" (to say nothing of the parcel with a strap).

Also, Kelly having a song after saying she was going to "have a song" is as nothing compared to the actions and dialogue described by Hutchinson before, during and after her encounter with Astrakhan Man.

Hmmm.....for someone who supposedly culled his story from the papers, he sure seems to have made a lot of it up!

[Joshua Rogan]

exactly and not sure if you saw my previous post but cox is corroborated as others heard Marys singing also.

I don't suppose you can name any of the others, can you?

[Bridewell]

If the man in the wide-awake hat had never come forward, posters on this forum and elsewhere would be concluding that it was because he himself was the killer. Hutchinson does come forward and hardly anyone believes what he says anyway.

This is because he supposedly couldn't possibly have seen what he claims to have seen in the prevailing lighting conditions. Of course nobody alive today actually knows what those lighting conditions were, so we have to either guess or to rely on contemporary sources. The only one we have is a senior Scotland Yard detective who'd worked Whitechapel for 20 years or so. He, Abberline, was "of opinion his statement is true". Of course it may not have been but the point I'm making is that Abberline didn't dismiss, as absurd, the possibility that the lighting conditions on Commercial Street, and the Commercial Street end of Dorset Street, could have been sufficient. I am far from certain that Hutchinson was truthful but I accept the distinct possibility that he may have been.

[Sam Flynn]

Hmmm.....for someone who supposedly culled his story from the papers, he sure seems to have made a lot of it up!

I'm suggesting that he culled part of his story from the papers (not just those reports relating to the Kelly case), and part of his story from what was undoubtedly in circulation on people's lips. If he wanted a saleable story, then it's quite conceivable that he made the bulk of it up, hence the dark-complexioned, middle-aged, foreign-looking, bushy-eyebrowed gentleman, with a dark moustache turned up at the ends, wearing a soft felt hat, with a long dark coat trimmed with astrachan, black necktie with horseshoe pin, spats, button boots, a massive gold watch-chain, with large seal and a red stone attached, and flourishing a red handkerchief, and carrying a parcel with a strap. How anyone can't see that this description doesn't carry more than a whiff of "too good to be true" is utterly beyond me.

[Abby Normal]

I don't suppose you can name any of the others, can you?

Catherine pickett

[Sam Flynn]

exactly and not sure if you saw my previous post but cox is corroborated as others heard Marys singing also.

Not sure that anyone else heard the singing, Abby. It scarcely matters, because what Mrs Cox reports is hardly earth-shattering, namely a tipsy woman who says she's "going to have a song" then actually "having a song". Nothing extraordinary about that.

[cnr]

Only A Violet...

I don't suppose you can name any of the others, can you?

“The last thing he had heard of her was at one o’clock Friday morning, when she was singing in her room, and appeared to be very happy”. reporting John McCarthy, Illustrated Police News, 17 November 1888

Catherine Picket / Pickett is also said to have heard her (c. 12.30am), which together with Cox (c. 1.00am), may be the source of McCarthy's statement, if he is only and simply reporting the observations of others - the above report seems to suggest he heard her singing himself (?).

[Sam Flynn]

“The last thing he had heard of her was at one o’clock Friday morning, when she was singing in her room, and appeared to be very happy”. reporting John McCarthy, Illustrated Police News, 17 November 1888

Catherine Picket / Pickett is also said to have heard her (c. 12.30am), which together with Cox (c. 1.00am), may be the source of McCarthy's statement, if he is only and simply reporting the observations of others - the above report seems to suggest he heard her singing himself (?).

I stand corrected. Thanks for that.

Like I said, however, it scarcely matters, given that Mrs Cox's testimony was hardly extraordinary even if it weren't corroborated... unlike some witnesses I might mention.

[Wickerman]

Not the officials,the residents.They were not allowed to leave till the afternoon.When they were allowed to leave there is no possibility people,curious onlookers and hangers-on, would ask these people? Sarah Lewis left Mrs Keyler's at about half past 5 in the afternoon.
Until it's eliminated that people could not have learned of Lewis testimony you can't run away that Hutch statement was corroborated by Lewis.You could not prove they did not either.Am after the truth not just blindly/naively following the meager account of Kelly's case.
And not only that the officials knew more about Kelly's case than we do and through the months/years abandoned him -did not use him - as an important witness,the "only" witness to have seen a possible suspect for several minutes.

Of course the locals will be talking, but what are they talking about?
Do you think that the press would not print what those locals were talking about? It's more than likely they would, right?
So where is it?

We do read gossip in the press over that weekend. Perhaps you believe the press invented that gossip, but avoided printing the real gossip by the locals.

Hutchinson's story contains certain details, if you believe he got those details from street gossip, then where is this street gossip in the press?
Prove your case, show me this gossip.
And, if you cannot, because it does not exist, then what is the basis for your argument?

Because you cannot provide an example of their gossip, then how can you claim Hutchinson got his details from their gossip?
That argument makes no sense at all.

[Abby Normal]

“The last thing he had heard of her was at one o’clock Friday morning, when she was singing in her room, and appeared to be very happy”. reporting John McCarthy, Illustrated Police News, 17 November 1888

Catherine Picket / Pickett is also said to have heard her (c. 12.30am), which together with Cox (c. 1.00am), may be the source of McCarthy's statement, if he is only and simply reporting the observations of others - the above report seems to suggest he heard her singing himself (?).

Thanks Cnr

Pickets husband also.