Hutchinsons statement....

[Bridewell]

Which raises a question, what did Mary need with 6p when the pubs were closed?

That she had need of money is not in doubt - she had massive rent arrears and her landlord was chasing her for the money. Why was she seeking money in the small hours of the morning? The same reason that prostitutes in the modern era solicit at that time - there's a market for the service at that hour. If MJK was alcoholic (as so many of the unfortunates seem to have been) she will have needed a drink as soon as she woke up. If you're going to have urgent need of money first thing in the morning, it makes sense to make sure that you've got it before you go to bed.

[Wickerman]

The "Kennedy" reports are early, and somewhat garbled anyway.

Please identify the "garbled" bits.

If they aren't an agency reporter's hastily-compiled and inaccurate version of Lewis's own story, it's possible that Kennedy picked up Lewis's story via the jungle grapevine and put her own stamp on it. If "Kennedy" was able to do this, then Hutchinson would have been able to do it also.

Thats two "ifs", one being dependent on the other. Assumption on top of assumption.

"Detective-Inspector Abberline has interviewed a girl named Kennedy, who states that about half-past 3 on the morning of the murder she went to her parent's house, which is opposite the room occupied by Mary Jane Kelly, and on reaching the court she saw a woman talking to two men. Shortly afterwards, when inside her father's house she heard a cry of "Murder" in a woman's voice, and she alleges the sound came from the direction of Kelly's room."
Times, 12 Nov. 1888.

Kennedy gave her statement to police, as a result she is an official witness.
Looks pretty clear to me.

[Wickerman]

I honestly find it unlikely. Rough as the East End was, they were very different times and, as I suggested, I can't imagine that a too many teenage boys would want to boff a beery streetwalker - either then or now.

Just a tad unrealistic Gareth.

[Wickerman]

Which raises a question, what did Mary need with 6p when the pubs were closed?

It was a proposition Michael, she doesn't give herself for free.
From what I understand a regular "kneetrembler" up a back alley was 4d, the price of a bed. Kelly, having her own room could charge a little higher, possibly?

[Sam Flynn]

Just a tad unrealistic Gareth.

I agree, Jon. It is indeed a bit unrealistic for a teenage lad to want to boff a beery streetwalker at two in the morning.

[Wickerman]

He claims to have known her for five years, which is unlikely ......

Three years Gareth, not five.

[Wickerman]

I agree, Jon. It is indeed a bit unrealistic for a teenage lad to want to boff a beery streetwalker at two in the morning.

Young'uns grew up faster in those days, you were a man in your teens, at work in flat cap & boots (or bare feet) earning a living.
We can't judge our couch-potato life today (or indeed the bubble-wrapped life of our spoiled teenagers), with the rough lives of 19th century East Enders.
You're comparing apples with oranges.

[Joshua Rogan]

Three years Gareth, not five.

Yes, I think it was Maurice Lewis who claimed to have known Kelly for 5 years.

[Sam Flynn]

Three years Gareth, not five.

Thanks for the correction, Jon. I wondered if it was three, actually - should have looked it up!

Not that it makes much difference, of course. We're still talking about a 14-15 year old boy befriending a twentysomething prostitute from the Ratcliff Highway.

[Sam Flynn]

Young'uns grew up faster in those days, you were a man in your teens, at work in flat cap & boots (or bare feet) earning a living.

True enough, so go and find a girl your own age, Hutch... if you haven't got a girlfriend already. And pick a more civilised time of the night to do it, for pity's sake!


My issue here, specifically, is the idea of a teenage Hutchinson as a prospective prostitute's customer, scouting for nookie at 2 o'clock on a drizzly morning. For me, it's a scenario that doesn't compute.

[Joshua Rogan]

True enough, so go and find a girl your own age, Hutch... if you haven't got a girlfriend already. And pick a more civilised time of the night to do it, for pity's sake!


My issue here, specifically, is the idea of a teenage Hutchinson as a prospective prostitute's customer, scouting for nookie at 2 o'clock on a drizzly morning. For me, it's a scenario that doesn't compute.

Well, Hutch wasn't out scouting, he had (according to his own statement) got back from Romford too late for his usual bed, and didn't have the money to find another. He faced the prospect of a sleepless night in the damp November streets. So if he entertained thoughts of sharing a warm bed with Mary, even if it was just an idle fantasy to keep the cold at bay, it seems plausible enough to me.

My issue is that. If he was only a teenager, where did he come by his military bearing? Seems a bit young to have served much time in the forces.

[andy1867]

39 pages...I'm quite proud of meself
Albeit I haven't added much....
I did once bat through an innings for 15 in a Sheffield midweek cricket game..
Feels a bit like that.....

[Sam Flynn]

Well, Hutch wasn't out scouting, he had (according to his own statement) got back from Romford too late for his usual bed, and didn't have the money to find another.

We only have his word for that.

My issue is that. If he was only a teenager, where did he come by his military bearing? Seems a bit young to have served much time in the forces.

Not sure where the "military bearing" description comes from. I've looked for a contemporary source, but can't find it - perhaps someone else has the source to hand?

In any case, I've no doubt whatsoever that George Hutchinson was George William Topping Hutchinson, and that he was never in the army as far as I know.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I have to correct myself, having checked his DOB. Topping was born on 1st October 1866 so would have just turned 22 at the time of Kelly's death; by extension, he'd have been 18 or 19 when he claimed to have first made her acquaintance when the latter was living down Ratcliff way.

[Wickerman]

True enough, so go and find a girl your own age, Hutch... if you haven't got a girlfriend already. And pick a more civilised time of the night to do it, for pity's sake!


My issue here, specifically, is the idea of a teenage Hutchinson as a prospective prostitute's customer, scouting for nookie at 2 o'clock on a drizzly morning. For me, it's a scenario that doesn't compute.

Something tells me you have not read William Fishman's, East End 1888.
I can't imagine you holding such classic 'modern' opinions if you had.
Try it. you might like it.
(I'm talking about the book, but... )

[Wickerman]

IMPORTANT NOTE: I have to correct myself, having checked his DOB. Topping was born on 1st October 1866 so would have just turned 22 at the time of Kelly's death; by extension, he'd have been 18 or 19 when he claimed to have first made her acquaintance when the latter was living down Ratcliff way.

Ah, then he wasn't still wet behind the ears in 1888,.... so is that an apology?
(Two details you didn't check on this subject then?)

Jus' teasing.