Hutchinsons statement....

[Varqm]

Nope. It is NOT "clear" at all. It is unclear.

I am not saying that they were not one and the same - they may well have been. In any case, though, it is not "clear" at all.

If it was, we would not have this discussion.

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

[Wickerman]

Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

How long did police search for the "red-neck" suspect from Eddowes murder, years, months, weeks, days?
The police had three witnesses in that case yet what happened to that investigation?

[Varqm]

How long did police search for the "red-neck" suspect from Eddowes murder, years, months, weeks, days?
The police had three witnesses in that case yet what happened to that investigation?

First would he have been a prime suspect?
A notorious case involving a series of murders ,common sense says years.
Officially closed in 1892.

[GUT]

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

But Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell were pretty straightforward witness too, but are pretty much ignored by most.

[Wickerman]

But there's no mention of Fairclough Street in Michael's post #864.

So that can't be the answer to my question.

You must really avail yourself of a map.

The quote offered by Michael, in part reads:

"......but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle, and found two officers."

From the murder site in Dutfields Yard there are two direct ways to get to Grove Street. The nearest via Fairclough st., and the longer via Commercial rd.
He says his second venture was along Commercial Rd., so his first search was via ?.....(answers on a post card please.....)

Sometimes we have to figure things out ourselves.

[Varqm]

But Maurice Lewis and Caroline Maxwell were pretty straightforward witness too, but are pretty much ignored by most.

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

[Fisherman]

Varqm: (I know I´m not supposed to butt in here, but I really don´t think they spoke of the same man at all)

It had to be Hutch,he waited for 45 min.

And did Lewis establish that the loiterer waited for 45 minutes too? No, she did not. Did the loiterer stand where Hutchinson said he stood? Ne, he did not. So does it have to be the same man? No,it does not - unless we can prove that Hutchinson was there at the time Lewis was there. Can we do that? No, we can not - Hutchinson never mentioned Lewis at all, and so the likelier thing is that he was not there at the time.

We have zero evidence of Hutchinson placing himself in any other spot than "at the corner of the court". Ergo, as far as I am concerened, when he said he went to the court, I think he was telling us that he walked into the court itself.

I believed it more to be 2 incidents rather than Badham wrote wrong.I believe in Sarah Lewis,Lewis only saw one man across or near Miller's court.So Hutch's initial report was missing Sarah Lewis coming down to Miller's court and "man was looking up the court" (from near Crossinghams).

Like you said before: we need to agree to disagree. Have a look at Lewis´ collected evidence, and you may be less enthusiastic about her value as a witness - especially if she was also Mrs Kennedy.

Astrakhan man would be the prime suspect, and Hutchinsons story would not be graded down in importance.

From Thrawl Street to what the couple did,to standing near the court for several minutes,couple's conversations and "I went to the court to see" maybe took 10-15-20 minutes,and 45 minutes waiting so 2:55 AM to 3:05 AM that Astrakhan man could have left.
Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

But that never happened; he was graded down alongside Hutchinsons story. And I have stated why In think that was so.

[Fisherman]

You don't have to but I believe in Sarah Lewis,she was a straightforward witness,whose story she visted Keylers could have been checked since she was sequestered in Miller's court.If she said it was her that got accosted in Bethnal Green,went to the room across Kelly's room,heard Oh murder,then it was her.
It could not have happened to 2 people.Those versions then would be wrong,either the reporter misidentified her,Sarah gave the name Mrs. Kennedy,or somebody pretended to be Lewis.

You make a lot of sense, and may well be spot on. But the thing I am arguing about is how you say that things are "clear". They are not. They are muddled.

[Fisherman]

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

According to the Star, the cry was corroborated by a whole heap of people... Maybe it was the fact that Prater and Lewis suggested roughly the same time for the cry that helped got them on the stand...?

[Robert]

Emily Alexandra Lewis :

Born 1888 58 Appian Rd, Bow.

In 1891 she was with her grandparents at 3 Candy St, Bow.

1892 - 5 according to school records she was at 73 Lamprell St.

[GUT]

Yes but the cry Lewis heard was corroborated.But what does your gut tell you,no pun intended.

About the sightings???

[Michael W Richards]

David.
Koebrodski went out twice, the first time along Fairclough st. with Diemschitz, they did not find a policeman. The second time up to Commercial Rd. thats where he found PC Lamb.

In fact if you had read Michaels post #864, you would have seen your answer.

Incidentally Michael, "at the request of Diemschitz" means Diemschitz asked Kozebrodski to accompany him.

"I went to look for a policeman at the request of Diemschitz or some other member of the club, but I took the direction towards Grove-street and could not find one. I afterwards went into the Commercial-road along with Eagle"

I don't see your interpretation in the words above Jon, it seems pretty clear to me that "I" went looking for a policeman at the request of"...and that is not in any of the club affiliated statements, from Louis, Eagle or anyone else. The timing within that same quote however has no less than 3 corroborating statements, from members inside the club and from someone with no affiliation at all. Odd that the accounts do not reflect that solo trip by Issac...could it be because his story also suggest that he was by a dying woman at approx. 12:45? off a few minutes ok...but a quarter of an hour when he was inside the club for 10-15 minutes before he was summoned, and likely took note of the time.

Sources aside, I tend to side with multiple corroborating accounts, someone with no known affiliation to anyone on that site, and people who don't have their ongoing livelihood connected with suspicions of innocence or guilt by the authorities.

[Michael W Richards]

According to the Star, the cry was corroborated by a whole heap of people... Maybe it was the fact that Prater and Lewis suggested roughly the same time for the cry that helped got them on the stand...?

I think it was the fact that one of them provably knew the victim and lived in the same house, and the other had close proximity. The fact that they heard the cry in differing volumes at roughly the same time helps us pinpoint the source, and perhaps the entrance of the killer. Which would make the sighting(s) earlier less valuable, but Hutchinson, if he was indeed Wideawake man, even more curious. Might be the only person seen lurking just outside the courtyard after midnight.

[Pierre]

Varqm: (I know I´m not supposed to butt in here, but I really don´t think they spoke of the same man at all)

It had to be Hutch,he waited for 45 min.

And did Lewis establish that the loiterer waited for 45 minutes too? No, she did not. Did the loiterer stand where Hutchinson said he stood? Ne, he did not. So does it have to be the same man? No,it does not - unless we can prove that Hutchinson was there at the time Lewis was there. Can we do that? No, we can not - Hutchinson never mentioned Lewis at all, and so the likelier thing is that he was not there at the time.

We have zero evidence of Hutchinson placing himself in any other spot than "at the corner of the court". Ergo, as far as I am concerened, when he said he went to the court, I think he was telling us that he walked into the court itself.

I believed it more to be 2 incidents rather than Badham wrote wrong.I believe in Sarah Lewis,Lewis only saw one man across or near Miller's court.So Hutch's initial report was missing Sarah Lewis coming down to Miller's court and "man was looking up the court" (from near Crossinghams).

Like you said before: we need to agree to disagree. Have a look at Lewis´ collected evidence, and you may be less enthusiastic about her value as a witness - especially if she was also Mrs Kennedy.

Astrakhan man would be the prime suspect, and Hutchinsons story would not be graded down in importance.

From Thrawl Street to what the couple did,to standing near the court for several minutes,couple's conversations and "I went to the court to see" maybe took 10-15-20 minutes,and 45 minutes waiting so 2:55 AM to 3:05 AM that Astrakhan man could have left.
Still yes a prime suspect and probably the police would have searched for for years.And retained contact with so that if they found a suspect they would need him and have him as one of the witnesses to identify the suspect.

But that never happened; he was graded down alongside Hutchinsons story. And I have stated why In think that was so.

Such a perfect place and time for a serial murderer when he wants to commit murder and perform extensive mutilations!

People loitering around outside the house, people waiting outside the house, lodging houses all around, many inhabitants in the court, inhabitants in the house, very thin walls, a dysfunctional door lock and on the night before the Lord Mayor´s Show.

In all of this, he will disappear and leave everyone discussing the other people above.

[Robert]

This thing I call a brain has concluded that the Emily Alexandra Lewis who married into the Church family was indeed Sarah Lewis's daughter rather than her niece - and that's because she was actually Emily Catherine Lewis born 1886. For some reason best known to herself, she changes her middle name to 'Alexandra.' Then, in 1939 and at her death, her birth date is right as regards day and month but the year is two years out.

The other Emily Alexandra Lewis (Sarah's niece) married Thomas William Smart in 1909. Her birth date at death is correct, though it's one year out in 1939.