The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[Rosella]

Hi Craig,
Thanks for the short list! Just a couple of observations. The Press often complained that the Met officers weren't cooperative with them, not just in the JTR killings. The radical press, the Star etc, were the most vocal about Warren and his record. Also, from the beginning of the Met drunkenness was a problem within the force. (Most policemen came from the working class and it was a hard drinking culture, in spite of teetotal organisations.)

[el_pombo]

The OP about JTR possibly being a police official prompted me to do some more reading about the London police force.

I wasn't aware about how Charles Warren was so unpopular, especially after the November 1887 "Bloody Sunday" violence between police and protesting unemployed workers (2 deaths and 100 injuries). A quote I found was "the press attacked the 'Met' force and frequently compared it's work unfavourably with that of the 'City of London Police'."

I also read about concerns of undermanning police stations, and poor police discipline (constables sacked for drinking on the job, etc)

There may have been a push to have Warren replaced. I also read how the new Police Leadership led to a stronger, more positive police force. It also allowed Moro to appoint Macnaghten (who had been blocked by Warren)

This could explain some co-incidence in dates. Robert Anderson was appointed Assistant Commissioner the day Polly Nichols died. Warren resigned the day of Kelly's murder.

Pierre gave several clues on his suspect :- an official of Scotland Yard / Metropolitan Police (not London City Policy), born before 1858, well educated, had lived in an expensive home at some stage, thought he was smarter, did not live in the local Whitechapel area, was not a police constable.

I found a great book which listed all Police force of 1888

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=9QerSzv2RDQC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22sir+james+fraser%22+london+police&source=bl&ots=9_q9J76J8q&sig=LvKR26LVGvBmCUnv7lUPx1G0fZY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii99HDvP3JAhWDJKYKHebAARwQ6AEIRDAI#v=onepage&q=%22sir%20james%20fraser%22%20london%20police&f=false

I came down to a short list of 10 who could meet the criteria.

The most obvious ones:

• Alexander Carmichael Bruce (Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police) - previously a barrister (well educated), the only one living in wealth home with servants, right location
• Inspector William Causby
• Sergeant Amos Dudman
• Detective Sergeant Patrick Enright
• Sergeant Henry Kerby / Kirby - was fired for drinking on the job. Barnard Brown wrote an article on him (does anyone have a copy ?)
• Chief Inspector John George Littlechild
• Detective Constable Robert Sagar - started a medicine degree before transferring to Police. On retirement, described as one of the smartest police detectives. Technically was with City Police not Metro
• Major Henry Smith -
• Inspector John Spratling
• Sergeant Stephen White
• Inspector Richard Webb

We're heading away for a few days. Interested in others feedback on this

Rgds
Craig

I wonder how many of those in the list either died, were arrested, left England or became in any way incapacitated to commit ripper-like murders in the months after the last canonical victim was murdered.

I'm not saying I think Pierre is right, I'm not a ripper expert, but if I were to explore the possibility of the ripper being with the police, this is something I would look into.

[Clownwings]

I came down to a short list of 10 who could meet the criteria.

The most obvious ones:

• Alexander Carmichael Bruce (Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police) - previously a barrister (well educated), the only one living in wealth home with servants, right location
• Inspector William Causby
• Sergeant Amos Dudman
• Detective Sergeant Patrick Enright
• Sergeant Henry Kerby / Kirby - was fired for drinking on the job. Barnard Brown wrote an article on him (does anyone have a copy ?)
• Chief Inspector John George Littlechild
• Detective Constable Robert Sagar - started a medicine degree before transferring to Police. On retirement, described as one of the smartest police detectives. Technically was with City Police not Metro
• Major Henry Smith -
• Inspector John Spratling
• Sergeant Stephen White
• Inspector Richard Webb

My pick would be Detective Constable Robert Sagar, for the following reasons.

1. He used to go undercover around the streets of Whitechapel in the pursuit of Jack, and "So effectual was his disguise that he was actually tracked himself by two police-officers, who thought they had reason to regard him as a suspicious character." This would give him access not only to any disguise of his choosing, but allow a very legitimate cover story if he was ever approached by police, which is exactly what happened in the anecdote above.

2. Pierre seems largely unconcerned by the uniform debate, and Sagar "was later said to be the only officer of the City of London Police who had never worn uniform." Suggesting perhaps that he used his knowledge of disguises to blend in, whilst knowing the beats of the local police. It would also explain why Pierre is unconcerned, as he knew his suspect never wore an actual uniform.

3. He was enrolled as a medical student, but eventually left & joined the police. "Because of his medical background, Sagar was nicknamed "the Doctor" by his colleagues" This would have given him the level of training many believe Jack had.

4. He was, according to Major Henry Smith, the Commissioner of the City of London Police between 1890 and 1901, very intelligent. "For a better or more intelligent officer than Robert Sagar I never had under my command."

5. And lastly his mother died in December 1887. It is fairly common for serial killers to go on spree killing after someone they are close to dies. It could perhaps have been the catalyst to drive him to murder.

I am not saying I agree with Sagar as a suspect, but I think he has some good points in his favour to be Pierre's person of interest.

[Craig H]

Sorry - should have mentioned --- I used ancestry.com to remove those not meeting criteria

Craig

[Monty]

Lol nor did I. However I think rather than score points, it's more important that this police theory is debated. There is a lot of expertise on here with regard to police uniforms and this is important to either support or contradict part of Pierre's theory.

As much as many on here would hate to admit it, Pierre is doing original research. Bernard Brown has written an excellent paper on the possibility of a railway policeman as JTR, but I think I'm right in saying Pierre is the first person to put forward the theory that a Metropolitan or City policeman was the JTR. Unless others on the forum know otherwise.

I'm just a cadet and it is hard to know who everyone is on here as some of us use nicknames rather than our own names and don't include a resume. I think Pierre is very defensive as he has had a lot of criticism but of course he is on here to discuss his ideas and have some help. In turn debating his ideas moves the subject forward and may help other researchers.

I think all of us would love to have a Tardis and go back in time and visit key points to answer question. It is the same with all historical/archaeological research but you are limited by the sources available. I think the value of forums like this as real time everyone can put their heads together and this is important as no one person will crack it, if this is ever possible.

Happy New Year to all on Casebook Ripper and looking further down the line to more Pierre revelations and other as yet unseen developments that will move the subject forward.

DS Thick was accused as the murderer during the crimes, so the theory is one of the eldest around.

Monty
☺

[Monty]

The OP about JTR possibly being a police official prompted me to do some more reading about the London police force.

I wasn't aware about how Charles Warren was so unpopular, especially after the November 1887 "Bloody Sunday" violence between police and protesting unemployed workers (2 deaths and 100 injuries). A quote I found was "the press attacked the 'Met' force and frequently compared it's work unfavourably with that of the 'City of London Police'."

I also read about concerns of undermanning police stations, and poor police discipline (constables sacked for drinking on the job, etc)

There may have been a push to have Warren replaced. I also read how the new Police Leadership led to a stronger, more positive police force. It also allowed Moro to appoint Macnaghten (who had been blocked by Warren)

This could explain some co-incidence in dates. Robert Anderson was appointed Assistant Commissioner the day Polly Nichols died. Warren resigned the day of Kelly's murder.

Pierre gave several clues on his suspect :- an official of Scotland Yard / Metropolitan Police (not London City Policy), born before 1858, well educated, had lived in an expensive home at some stage, thought he was smarter, did not live in the local Whitechapel area, was not a police constable.

I found a great book which listed all Police force of 1888

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=9QerSzv2RDQC&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22sir+james+fraser%22+london+police&source=bl&ots=9_q9J76J8q&sig=LvKR26LVGvBmCUnv7lUPx1G0fZY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwii99HDvP3JAhWDJKYKHebAARwQ6AEIRDAI#v=onepage&q=%22sir%20james%20fraser%22%20london%20police&f=false

I came down to a short list of 10 who could meet the criteria.

The most obvious ones:

• Alexander Carmichael Bruce (Assistant Commissioner of Metro Police) - previously a barrister (well educated), the only one living in wealth home with servants, right location
• Inspector William Causby
• Sergeant Amos Dudman
• Detective Sergeant Patrick Enright
• Sergeant Henry Kerby / Kirby - was fired for drinking on the job. Barnard Brown wrote an article on him (does anyone have a copy ?)
• Chief Inspector John George Littlechild
• Detective Constable Robert Sagar - started a medicine degree before transferring to Police. On retirement, described as one of the smartest police detectives. Technically was with City Police not Metro
• Major Henry Smith -
• Inspector John Spratling
• Sergeant Stephen White
• Inspector Richard Webb

We're heading away for a few days. Interested in others feedback on this

Rgds
Craig

Couple of points Craig,

Anderson was appointed before Nichols murder, Warren resigned before Kellys demise and Sagar was a City police official.

My book shall be available in paperback form in a few weeks by the way.

Monty
☺

ps, Ive just noted that you have pointed out Sagars jurisdiction, apologies.

[Rosella]

Does Pierre know the difference between the Met and the City police force, though?
Pierre also said in one of his posts that his suspect lived in a mansion at one stage. Sagar was born in what was probably a substantial farm house, but a mansion?
Pierre also said that he had seen a photo of one of his suspect's relatives and wanted to see the man himself. Well, Sagar's photo is in the A-Z, though admittedly Pierre might not have seen it.

[GUT]

Does Pierre know the difference between the Met and the City police force, though?
Pierre also said in one of his posts that his suspect lived in a mansion at one stage. Sagar was born in what was probably a substantial farm house, but a mansion?
Pierre also said that he had seen a photo of one of his suspect's relatives and wanted to see the man himself. Well, Sagar's photo is in the A-Z, though admittedly Pierre might not have seen it.

Pierre might think A-Z is a dictionary or street directory or timetable of some sort, remember he only read things written by academics.

Us hobbyists are below him.

[Pierre]

Please tell me you aren't comparing Pierre to one of the world's greatest minds, who actually studied those who set the ground work he built on.

When Pierre says he has no idea who various eminent authors in the field are because he doesn't read them that displays and arrogance that to me is unbelievable.


How can it be arrogant not to read ripperology? I am reading a lot of literature especially within the field of sociology. Is it arrogant also that I don´t read literature about geography?


And when someone like Monty (who probably knows as much, or more about LVP policing as anyone alive) tells him he is wrong about something as simple as police uniform colours and Pierre is dismissive it is an absolute joke and robs him of any credibility that he may have had.

I haven´t been dismissive about the colour of the uniform. If Monty is right the uniforms were dark blue. I simply don´t have the time to go through all the posts here and answer them. And is it something terrible to go through life not knowing who this "Monty" is?

Regards Pierre

[Monty]

And is it something terrible to go through life not knowing who this "Monty" is?

No Pierre, it is not terrible at all.

Monty

[Pierre]

And is it something terrible to go through life not knowing who this "Monty" is?

No Pierre, it is not terrible at all.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Are you an academic historian perhaps?

Regards, Pierre

[GUT]

And is it something terrible to go through life not knowing who this "Monty" is?

No Pierre, it is not terrible at all.

Monty

In person, probably no great loss

But if you want to base a theory around LVP policing not a bad idea to at least listen to what he says and read what he writes.

To go back to a comparison one of his acolytes came out with it would be a bit like wanting to base a theory on relativity and having no idea who Einstein was. (Not I said a bit like)

[Monty]

Hi Monty,

Are you an academic historian perhaps?

Regards, Pierre

No, I am a pebble cleaner for Brighton Borough Council.

Monty

[Monty]

In person, probably no great loss

But if you want to base a theory around LVP policing not a bad idea to at least listen to what he says and read what he writes.

To go back to a comparison one of his acolytes came out with it would be a bit like wanting to base a theory on relativity and having no idea who Einstein was. (Not I said a bit like)

In person, its a huge loss...so I've been told.

Pierre's theory, whatever it is, is centered around policing in some aspect. As he/she has mentioned uniforms being bloodstained, then one can only assume their man was on duty. Now, as mentioned earlier, this raises a mass of obstacles for a PC Jack theory.

However, if he was off duty, those obstacles are greatly reduced.

Question is, why does Pierre make life so difficult for him/herself?

Monty

[GUT]

Hi Monty,

Are you an academic historian perhaps?

Regards, Pierre

Cause if not you aren't worth knowing, more ignorance and arrogance.

But why am I surprised.