The profession of Jack the Ripper.

[Mayerling]

Is it really reasonable, Jeff, bearing in mind that Monty has told us a police uniform was, in fact, blue?

Hi David,

To a person who is not familiar with police uniform colors of 1888, the remarks by Pierre seem reasonable. But to be fair, if we consider the point brought up that the uniforms were blue not black, it becomes a little too pedantic, because the issue suddenly loses the overriding point that Pierre was bringing out of the visibility issue due to light or the lack of it on an evening within Whitechapel in 1888. To be totally fair, besides the color comparison of black against red or blue against red, we would also have to consider what the status of street lighting was like in that area. Were the streets lit by gaslight in Whitechapel or electric bulb? I suspect they were mostly lit by gaslight still in 1888, as both Swan and Edison invented their light bulbs only a decade or so earlier, and I know Edison was busy slowly electrifying the streets of New York City (he set up the first power plant in lower Manhattan between 1880 and 1882), but I don't know when it was done in London. Pierre is right here - the subject does require deeper research in several directions. Also, weather conditions - how clear were the nights of the attacks in 1888: were they clear or foggy?

At a moment, standing back and reading all this, I keep thinking of the Hebrew/Yiddish term "pilpul" referring to the "Talmud" which demonstrates how Jewish rabbis have deconstructed or reconstructed passages from the Old Testament to explain the actual meaning of the passages (and usually it only ends in confusing everyone reading them). The same term can be used in getting into the subject of bloodstains on uniforms. And as Pierre rightly points out, we can't be sure about any police uniforms being worn by the killer! We don't even know if he was a police officer, a police official, a would-be police official, an antagonized applicant or office seeking police official candidate (paging a British nut job like Charles Guiteau, who shop President Garfield only seven years before this!), or someone who was considering wearing a stolen or borrowed police uniform for laughs. However, if you change the clothing to any kind of clothes (except, perhaps, those worn by a butcher or "shockhet") bloodstains still have to be explained to people in the light of day.

Interesting how everything gets so complicated.

Jeff

[David Orsam]

We don't even know if he was a police officer, a police official, a would-be police official, an antagonized applicant or office seeking police official candidate

No, we don't, Jeff, but Pierre claims he does know so you might want to ask him!

I don't think this issue is complicated at all. A blue uniform is not a black one. Monty has told us "that each constable was inspected at muster, when leaving for, and returning from, their beats." It's surely crazy - not reasonable - to think that a blood stained uniform could pass muster.

[Monty]

Hi,

Uniforms were not black: What colour were they according to you, and do you have a source?

Regards Pierre

Now you want to know me huh?

My source?

Notes on the history of Metropolitan Police Clothing and appointments: A report dated 14th March 1946 by the Superintendent Storekeeper. Original kept in the Commissioner's Library under reports 1945-1946. CRL242.

This is a private report, to which I have been privy to, however the extract below shows that that the uniform colour of the Met police, since its creation in 1829, was blue. This to avoid confusion with the military.

I also include a link to the Metropolitan Police Heritage Centre, the official keepers of all historical artefacts related to the Metropolitan Police, which also states the uniform was blue. If you follow their timeline through, they update you with all uniform changes. I doubt they would get their facts wrong.

Finally, there is constant mention of uniform matters in the Police Orders. I really haven't the time, nor inclination, to trawl through them for you. I suggest you do your own research for once.

https://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/1829-1899.html

Monty

[Monty]

No, we don't, Jeff, but Pierre claims he does know so you might want to ask him!

I don't think this issue is complicated at all. A blue uniform is not a black one. Monty has told us "that each constable was inspected at muster, when leaving for, and returning from, their beats." It's surely crazy - not reasonable - to think that a blood stained uniform could pass muster.

Indeed, and that is the crux of the problem regarding a blood stained uniform.

Monty

[Clownwings]

Not to add fuel to the fire but this website has some very good images of both the Metropolitan Police, and London Police uniforms, as well as the ranks.

City of London Police http://orig11.deviantart.net/11f6/f/...re-d7xjw78.png

Metropolitan Police http://orig03.deviantart.net/624c/f/...re-d7xjw6j.png

Although technically blue, they are a very very dark blue. This is the link to the webpage. http://gmic.co.uk/topic/63629-police...s-recommended/

[Monty]

Not to add fuel to the fire but this website has some very good images of both the Metropolitan Police, and London Police uniforms, as well as the ranks.

City of London Police http://orig11.deviantart.net/11f6/f/...re-d7xjw78.png

Metropolitan Police http://orig03.deviantart.net/624c/f/...re-d7xjw6j.png

Although technically blue, they are a very very dark blue. This is the link to the webpage. http://gmic.co.uk/topic/63629-police...s-recommended/

Indeed,

However to state black, when the facts are blue (albeit dark), draws into question the reliability of Pierres work.

Monty

[David Orsam]

I would go further and say that to ask the question:

"Are blood stains on black material visible?"

as Pierre did, when he had already been told that the material was blue, is peverse.

It doesn't matter what shade of blue because blue is not black and it meant that Pierre was simply asking the wrong question, a discussion on which would have wasted everyone's time.

[Pierre]

Now you want to know me huh?

My source?

Notes on the history of Metropolitan Police Clothing and appointments: A report dated 14th March 1946 by the Superintendent Storekeeper. Original kept in the Commissioner's Library under reports 1945-1946. CRL242.

This is a private report, to which I have been privy to, however the extract below shows that that the uniform colour of the Met police, since its creation in 1829, was blue. This to avoid confusion with the military.

I also include a link to the Metropolitan Police Heritage Centre, the official keepers of all historical artefacts related to the Metropolitan Police, which also states the uniform was blue. If you follow their timeline through, they update you with all uniform changes. I doubt they would get their facts wrong.

Finally, there is constant mention of uniform matters in the Police Orders. I really haven't the time, nor inclination, to trawl through them for you. I suggest you do your own research for once.

https://www.metpolicehistory.co.uk/1829-1899.html

Monty

Hi,

OK, thanks. Dark blue.

Regards Pierre

[el_pombo]

Hi Steve,

127 years. They havenŽt found the killer. The only hope is science.

But now Simon Wood (a theatre designer?) tries to get people to think that the killer did not exist.

And this is just after Russell Edwards (a businessman?) has tried to make people believe in a totally unreliable DNA-test on an equally unreliable artefact from heaven knows where.

Please.

DonŽt give me the talk about "respect" Steve. Where is the respect for the victims of Jack the Ripper when they are sold out on this monkey bazaar that constitutes ripperology?

Regards Pierre

I don't understand the relevance of Simon Wood and Russel Edward's professions or academical degrees. If a person who never went to school says 2 + 2 = 4, is that person automatically wrong because he doesn't have a diploma? Or if that person is a self-taught mathematician and made an important discovery in that field should his theory be disregarded because he never went to university?

Every person with an interest in mathematics are his peers.

Knowledge is not private property, many discoveries have been made and are still made by self-taught investigators.

I'm a self-taught computer programmer and I've been working alongside people with PhD's for all my life in several companies without my lack of an academical degree ever being an issue.

Sorry for my poor English, my native language is Portuguese.

Regards.

[John G]

Indeed,

However to state black, when the facts are blue (albeit dark), draws into question the reliability of Pierres work.

Monty

Hi Monty,

Isn't this why the police were referred to as "The Boys In Blue"?

My father's a retired police officer from a county force. I still remember his uniform, though, which was also blue in colour although, to look at, virtually indistinguishable from black.

[GUT]

HI,

I saw this and must comment on it:

"Originally Posted by David Orsam
The thing about the uniforms that I don't understand is that Pierre told us on 2 November that his suspect was someone "with a high position connected to some important institution". He was someone who was "well educated" and had "a lot of experience, had special skills, was highly intelligent" and who had "all the advantages". How could this suspect be a mere uniformed officer?"

Who has said anything about his rank? And, reading this, I can see that David has even less knowledge about the British police than I have. Amazing.

Regards Pierre

That ignore list you've got David on don't work too good does it?

[GUT]

He doesn't know who Monty is? Or like normal he doesn't care.

His response when I suggested he read the 2 part paper on police beats by Gavin Bromley was:

"IŽd love to if I would first get to know who this Bromley is. "

why does he need that information, of course he won't read if the writer is not a degree holder.

there is a degree of arrogance, which is back by a lack of knowledge.

Because he doesn't read what ripperoligists write. Don't forget.

[John G]

That ignore list you've got David on don't work too good does it?

Yes, I must say that I'm totally confused by Pierre's reply. I mean, in the context of a police officer what can "high position" possibly refer to other than rank?

[GUT]

Indeed,

However to state black, when the facts are blue (albeit dark), draws into question the reliability of Pierres work.

Monty

What reliability, what work?

[Pierre]

Not to add fuel to the fire but this website has some very good images of both the Metropolitan Police, and London Police uniforms, as well as the ranks.

City of London Police http://orig11.deviantart.net/11f6/f/...re-d7xjw78.png

Metropolitan Police http://orig03.deviantart.net/624c/f/...re-d7xjw6j.png

Although technically blue, they are a very very dark blue. This is the link to the webpage. http://gmic.co.uk/topic/63629-police...s-recommended/

Thanks!

Regards, Pierre